OK, guys....I have been doing some tests and all and have come up with some things that I think might have an impact. Now, I could be looking at this from the wrong perspective and if that is so....please correct me.
I have now read the three main books dealing with ol' Johann and this wheel. I would definitely recommend these to everybody. I have read parts of these over and again...to get a feel of the guy and the times. I believe the solution IS very simple and that was what probably made him so "testy". He had to keep it together and not not a single slip out. It seems that most of his descriptions are, be it for the book or during a showing of the wheel, were scripted...he couldn't really deviate from his "script". He was known to be really testy when asked certain questions that he COULD NOT answer without revealing too much.
OK, now the technical stuff. Many of you may remember a thread I had started a while back about "wheel acceleration". I have really been working on this as it is, IMHO, an absolute fact as to the operation of the wheels...and it is a consistency through out with everyone of his wheels. They accelerated very quickly..with little resistance...to their maximum speed.
Now, What I have done is come up with WM2D drawings of various designs by myself, one of Kens (just for demonstration purposes), and a couple of Besslers (MT19 was one) and watched them just keel! But, what if they were actually able to reach their maximum RPM's? What the arrangement look like? So, I attached a motor to the center of my wheels and set the first one to 50 RPM's...It was UNBELIEVABLE! It just went to pieces because it couldn't stand the strain. All the springs in your one design Ken...they just went all over the place at.....26 RPM's. My basic suggenstion here is...if what you are building will not hold up to the speed...it won't work!
I am not going to waste any more time on designs that CANNOT get past this very simple concept. I had been trying so hard to just see a beginning "movement", I totally blinded myself to the reality of the end result. The end result would have to be a regulated "speed"...and if what I am working on will not be able to defeat that force on the "upside" of the wheel...it will be all for naught! So, changing the amount of weight and the spring tensions and lengths of this and radius of that...mean nothing if it cannot maintain this position at 26 to 50 RPM's. And boy oh boy....KEN, try that 50 RPM on your one design. Folks, just think about what I am saying here. It makes sense! If you have an idea that uses weights all the way around your wheel...WM2D has a motor option...use it and see what happens to your idea at the max speed. If it can't maintain it's positions as you see them starting out then hang it up!
Am I off base here?
Steve
It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than trying to solely profit
Moderator: scott
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bluesgtr44
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re: It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than
Finding the right solution...is usually a function of asking the right questions. -A. Einstein
re: It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than
Am I off base here?
NOT AT ALL!
Ever sense I have read your tread about wheel acceleration I have been impressed with originality and your sensible approach at it!.
And it had influenced my thinking accordingly!
Thanks for that input
And now you have come with another great angle ! you are some kind of “ hip shooter”.
I am glad we have individuals like you in our forum.
Regards ,
Zoran
Robert.
I take that as compliment!.. thanks
re: It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than
ZORAN/ underdog. You're welcome. Consider yourself "busted."
Which reminds me. Since I have been building and testing and failing to find the right path through Herr Bessler's maze, I have paid my dues, and will just refer to him as "JB" from now on. He was a kindred spirit, and some time soon I will, with all due respect, bust him too....
blues, I think you are right with your analysis. If you listen to the metronome, there is nothing in MT that can keep pace with the tempo. I have tried componets of all 143 and nothing will work. JB was a master of deception. I don't blame him.
Which reminds me. Since I have been building and testing and failing to find the right path through Herr Bessler's maze, I have paid my dues, and will just refer to him as "JB" from now on. He was a kindred spirit, and some time soon I will, with all due respect, bust him too....
blues, I think you are right with your analysis. If you listen to the metronome, there is nothing in MT that can keep pace with the tempo. I have tried componets of all 143 and nothing will work. JB was a master of deception. I don't blame him.
Robert (The Carpenter's Boy)
There's never time to do it right the first time, but there's always time to do it over again.
There's never time to do it right the first time, but there's always time to do it over again.
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ken_behrendt
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re: It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than
Steve...
I agree with you that my previous design that I tested did fail and that centrifugal forces played a major role in the failure along with springs that had been made too weak.
In a current design I am testing, centrifugal forces actual ASSIST the wheel in maintaining a maxium terminal rotation rate. It all has to do with the angle that the weighted levers in my design make with the horizontal when they reach a deflection angle of 45° clockwise from the top of the wheel.
ken
I agree with you that my previous design that I tested did fail and that centrifugal forces played a major role in the failure along with springs that had been made too weak.
In a current design I am testing, centrifugal forces actual ASSIST the wheel in maintaining a maxium terminal rotation rate. It all has to do with the angle that the weighted levers in my design make with the horizontal when they reach a deflection angle of 45° clockwise from the top of the wheel.
ken
On 7/6/06, I found, in any overbalanced gravity wheel with rotation rate, ω, axle to CG distance d, and CG dip angle φ, the average vertical velocity of its drive weights is downward and given by:
Vaver = -2(√2)πdωcosφ
Vaver = -2(√2)πdωcosφ
re: It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than
Good night everybody.
Robert (The Carpenter's Boy)
There's never time to do it right the first time, but there's always time to do it over again.
There's never time to do it right the first time, but there's always time to do it over again.
re: It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than
Good night Robert, you sure work late.
Hi Ken, going back to your reply of two days ago where you suggested a double pin and to do away with the pendulum, well I'm not sure how you could use two pins, and getting rid of the pendulum (you sure don't like them do you?) I don't think it would be a good idea. The mushroom pendulum gives the added advantage that for a split second you have two weights resting on the head of the mushroom portion hence minimizing any counter torque to the system. You are a smart man, I'm sure I don't have to explain further. However if you see a flaw in my logic please tell me.
Turulato
Hi Ken, going back to your reply of two days ago where you suggested a double pin and to do away with the pendulum, well I'm not sure how you could use two pins, and getting rid of the pendulum (you sure don't like them do you?) I don't think it would be a good idea. The mushroom pendulum gives the added advantage that for a split second you have two weights resting on the head of the mushroom portion hence minimizing any counter torque to the system. You are a smart man, I'm sure I don't have to explain further. However if you see a flaw in my logic please tell me.
Turulato
Inventors, Masters of Creative and independent thought
re: It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than
Good morning everybody...
I'm waiting on some ordered parts to arrive, before I can continue.
I'm waiting on some ordered parts to arrive, before I can continue.
Robert (The Carpenter's Boy)
There's never time to do it right the first time, but there's always time to do it over again.
There's never time to do it right the first time, but there's always time to do it over again.
re: It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than
Robert
Hello I was impressed by your design, and I wondered if you are giving details on the forum as you build it, or have you posted a general idea along the way.
I thought I saw roof brackets, but as you said they are drawer slides.
Thanks for explaining this.
I like to follow this because you seem be going forward with building it.
Hello I was impressed by your design, and I wondered if you are giving details on the forum as you build it, or have you posted a general idea along the way.
I thought I saw roof brackets, but as you said they are drawer slides.
Thanks for explaining this.
I like to follow this because you seem be going forward with building it.
JB Wheeler
it exists I think I found it.
it exists I think I found it.
re: It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than
Once the parts arrive, I can begin assembly.
I won't be showing or telling any more details.
Again, I will be going underground, and will reappear to announce failure, or John Collins will come on to tell of success...
I have posted what I have because it is probably entertaining for the rest of you that someone is actually trying to make a model, etc.
I will be more disappointed than ever if this try comes to naught...
If successful, I will apply for a patent first, give the attorney's name to John Collins so thay can confer, and the world will go on from there.
Robert
I won't be showing or telling any more details.
Again, I will be going underground, and will reappear to announce failure, or John Collins will come on to tell of success...
I have posted what I have because it is probably entertaining for the rest of you that someone is actually trying to make a model, etc.
I will be more disappointed than ever if this try comes to naught...
If successful, I will apply for a patent first, give the attorney's name to John Collins so thay can confer, and the world will go on from there.
Robert
Robert (The Carpenter's Boy)
There's never time to do it right the first time, but there's always time to do it over again.
There's never time to do it right the first time, but there's always time to do it over again.
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ken_behrendt
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re: It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than
Robert...
Yes, good luck with your new approach. There is definitely a pleasure to the "hands on" construction of an invention instead of just relying on computer simulations. However, for some older inventors with health problems, CAD programs can allow them to "conserve" their limited supplies of energy until they have a design that really looks exciting...
turulato...
In reference to that reply to your excellent animation that I posted several days ago, below is an attached sketch of what I meant by using two pins to guide and control each double weighted lever instead of that mushroom shaped pendulum.
I'm not really opposed to using pendulums in one's gravity wheel design. It's just that, from studying what Bessler literature I have been able to, I am still not convinced that he used any pendulums inside of his wheels. I explored various pendulum designs years ago and the results were, for me, very disappointing. However, maybe you or someone else here will have better luck...
ken
Yes, good luck with your new approach. There is definitely a pleasure to the "hands on" construction of an invention instead of just relying on computer simulations. However, for some older inventors with health problems, CAD programs can allow them to "conserve" their limited supplies of energy until they have a design that really looks exciting...
turulato...
In reference to that reply to your excellent animation that I posted several days ago, below is an attached sketch of what I meant by using two pins to guide and control each double weighted lever instead of that mushroom shaped pendulum.
I'm not really opposed to using pendulums in one's gravity wheel design. It's just that, from studying what Bessler literature I have been able to, I am still not convinced that he used any pendulums inside of his wheels. I explored various pendulum designs years ago and the results were, for me, very disappointing. However, maybe you or someone else here will have better luck...
ken
- Attachments
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- Two stationary pins will require extra construction work, but might be able to eliminate the "mushroom" pendulum...
On 7/6/06, I found, in any overbalanced gravity wheel with rotation rate, ω, axle to CG distance d, and CG dip angle φ, the average vertical velocity of its drive weights is downward and given by:
Vaver = -2(√2)πdωcosφ
Vaver = -2(√2)πdωcosφ
re: It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than
Ken,
You add a lot to the board community without having to build anything.
Your comment about springs on MT60, ("Am I seeing things?", 18 May) led me to an important facet of the design that I'm now pursuing.
And I won't forget.
You add a lot to the board community without having to build anything.
Your comment about springs on MT60, ("Am I seeing things?", 18 May) led me to an important facet of the design that I'm now pursuing.
And I won't forget.
Robert (The Carpenter's Boy)
There's never time to do it right the first time, but there's always time to do it over again.
There's never time to do it right the first time, but there's always time to do it over again.
re: It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than
Ken,
Your stationary pin concept leave me in my usual quandary.
If the pins are stationary in relation to wheel radius they are packing the duel weights. the pins may show a changing load ratio but how does this effect the wheel? In my eyes it is like placing the fulcrum on what you are trying to move.
The only energy gain I see here would be the slider hitting the upper pin as it falls on the descent, unfortunately you have the same action on the ascent.
Ralph
Your stationary pin concept leave me in my usual quandary.
If the pins are stationary in relation to wheel radius they are packing the duel weights. the pins may show a changing load ratio but how does this effect the wheel? In my eyes it is like placing the fulcrum on what you are trying to move.
The only energy gain I see here would be the slider hitting the upper pin as it falls on the descent, unfortunately you have the same action on the ascent.
Ralph
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ken_behrendt
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re: It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than
Robert...
Thanks for the compliment and I am glad my observation about MT60 gave you some ideas to try out. I made that comment, IIRC, because previously I had stated in a post that I could not find a single spring anywhere in Maschinen Tractate and that I found that rather suspicious, but had now found one in MT60.
I think that Bessler avoided illustrating springs for two reasons. First and foremost, he did not want to give anybody even the slightest suspicion that his wheels used wound springs for power and, second, because his wheels DID use springs as part of the mechanism that maintained their state of chronic imbalance.
Ralph...
I decided to go back and take another look at that animated design that turulato posted a few days ago and now think that my double pin guided/supported levers might NOT be right for it. I noticed that when the animation first loads, it runs slower and I was, thereby, able to study the motions of the double weighted levers on the descending side of the wheel. I then noticed that the levers not only slide along the single pivot in their grooves, but also rotate about that groove near the bottom of the descending (right) side of the wheel. Obviously a lever with two pins in its groove would not be able to undergo that kind of motion (unless, of course, there was some sort of cutout in the lever that allowed it to disengage one pin so that it could pivot about the remaining engaged pin).
turulato...
I liked your animation, but I think on future animations you should slow down the motion a little bit so that one can more easily follow what is happening to the weights in the design. I would recommend having each separate frame displayed for about 50/100 seconds...that seems to work well.
ken
Thanks for the compliment and I am glad my observation about MT60 gave you some ideas to try out. I made that comment, IIRC, because previously I had stated in a post that I could not find a single spring anywhere in Maschinen Tractate and that I found that rather suspicious, but had now found one in MT60.
I think that Bessler avoided illustrating springs for two reasons. First and foremost, he did not want to give anybody even the slightest suspicion that his wheels used wound springs for power and, second, because his wheels DID use springs as part of the mechanism that maintained their state of chronic imbalance.
Ralph...
I decided to go back and take another look at that animated design that turulato posted a few days ago and now think that my double pin guided/supported levers might NOT be right for it. I noticed that when the animation first loads, it runs slower and I was, thereby, able to study the motions of the double weighted levers on the descending side of the wheel. I then noticed that the levers not only slide along the single pivot in their grooves, but also rotate about that groove near the bottom of the descending (right) side of the wheel. Obviously a lever with two pins in its groove would not be able to undergo that kind of motion (unless, of course, there was some sort of cutout in the lever that allowed it to disengage one pin so that it could pivot about the remaining engaged pin).
turulato...
I liked your animation, but I think on future animations you should slow down the motion a little bit so that one can more easily follow what is happening to the weights in the design. I would recommend having each separate frame displayed for about 50/100 seconds...that seems to work well.
ken
On 7/6/06, I found, in any overbalanced gravity wheel with rotation rate, ω, axle to CG distance d, and CG dip angle φ, the average vertical velocity of its drive weights is downward and given by:
Vaver = -2(√2)πdωcosφ
Vaver = -2(√2)πdωcosφ
re: It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than
Thanks for the info Ken:
How did you know there were going to be future ones?
You must be psychic, well here is another one of my designs at 50/100 let me know if you see anything wrong with it, I see possibilites (ofcourse, how can it be otherwise?)
Enjoy guys.
Hey Scott, why don't you make a museum of all the designs people have made, it'll save a lot of grief to new comers when they see that what they believed was a new idea, someone else had already tried it and it flopped.
Just a thought for everyones benefit from your freindly neighborhood Bessler Quack.
Turulato
How did you know there were going to be future ones?
You must be psychic, well here is another one of my designs at 50/100 let me know if you see anything wrong with it, I see possibilites (ofcourse, how can it be otherwise?)
Enjoy guys.
Hey Scott, why don't you make a museum of all the designs people have made, it'll save a lot of grief to new comers when they see that what they believed was a new idea, someone else had already tried it and it flopped.
Just a thought for everyones benefit from your freindly neighborhood Bessler Quack.
Turulato
- Attachments
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- Could this be the answer?
Inventors, Masters of Creative and independent thought
re: It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than
Man, Turulato!
You ARE very creative!!!!!..
You ARE very creative!!!!!..