Has An Important Property Of Fluids Been Overlooked ?

[WaltzCee]

Hey Jim,

Do you think you could shut up long enough for me to respond to Marchello

Ralph

of all the gym's in this world, who are you aiming this request at?

[Unbalanced]

Hello Fletcher,

This is an interesting thought experiment. It has taken me back to an experiment we tossed around in 2012:

http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... sc&start=0

With The Gates Foundation and others offering up Billions in alternative energy research funding, this seems an auspicious time to dust off these fluid experiments.

I am having a difficult time visualizing your initial concept. What is actually changing on either side of your fulcrum? Is it that the weight on the ascending side in depressing the plunger, is forcing a greater quantity of fluid to the decending side?

[rlortie]

Hello Curtis,

It is good to see your post, I for one have missed your participation here.

@ Me and Trevor L, I have been following your conversation on "MT 127, MT 128, MT 129"... I do not think you will find any answers pursuing buoyancy. My years of trial and error researching ideas received from participants subscribing to 'Arrache' have proved one simple conclusion. It takes the same amount of energy to submerge a buoyant object as can be gained by its upward thrust.

As for "Navier-Stokes" and related equations, They are of little to no consequence in my design. I only exploited the subject to fortify my belief that there are holes and assumptions in fluid dynamics relating to Newtons laws of motion.

My design is not to be found in Bessler's MT drawings. weights are not used to open and close bellows, nor is there any cross-over piping adding latency and friction.

To Trevor and those interested, before proceeding with more information of my design I suggest you refresh yourself and consider the possibilities of a rotary accumulator with fixed rotor blades.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_accumulator
http://www.hydraulic-equipment-manufact ... lator.html

A bit of trivia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Hy ... er_Company

[ME]

Doesn't say much (to me)

Are these better?
http://www.brighthubengineering.com/hyd ... y-and-use/
http://www.hammer-alleviators.com/image ... harged.gif

[daxwc]

Sounds a lot like John Worrel Keely's work Ralph.

[rlortie]

Good links Me!

Edited for brevity say's it all:

transformed from one from to another.� This energy can also be stored in a device or equipment, so that they can be used in another form. For example, we know about the function of flywheel in a rotary machine. It gains energy from the prime mover, stores the gained energy, and, when required, releases the energy back into the same system. Another example of energy storage and conversion, which is the most recent development in the automobile industry, is the K.E.R.S, or Kinetic Energy Recovery System. The system utilizes the kinetic energy when the car reduces its speed, and gives it back to the car itself for its acceleration. Thus energy is stored in some form and given back to the system in another form. The point I try to emphasize here is “energy is stored.�

It is a simple hydraulic device which stores energy in the form of fluid pressure. This stored pressure may be suddenly or intermittently released as per the requirement. In the case of a hydraulic lift or hydraulic crane, a large amount of energy is required when the lift or crane is moving upward. This energy is supplied from the hydraulic accumulator. But when the lift is moving in the downward direction, it does not require a huge amount of energy. During this particular time, the oil or hydraulic fluid pumped from the pump is stored in the accumulator for future use.

In my proposal the fixed blades in the rotating accumulator provide the force, moving/displacing the fluid to the descending side of the machine. Note that I say "fixed blades", there is no loss as explained in your:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-dim ... omachinery

As for the radial pump link, I do not see anything of value in this design that will be of use for the self-sustained machine we seek.

I will break down and explain my rebuttal regarding these three dimensional losses in depth when time permits. Currently pressing personal matters take priority.

Ralph

[rlortie]

Sounds a lot like John Worrel Keely's work Ralph.

If my idea works, I would not mind the notoriety, and place in history that he gained with his hoax! Fortunately or unfortunately I am not attempting to scam money out of a self-known hoax!

Give me time and I will release some figures for the learned math boys to play with!

Ralph

[eccentrically1]

Ralph, what takes the role of the hydraulic pump in your proposal? The pump is what keeps the accumulator stored with energy. In the drawing, they have a simple weight providing pressure on top of the accumulator, so gravity is providing the pressure for the initial lift by the crane, but after a lift, the pump has to kick in to re-pressurize the accumulator.

[Unbalanced]

Here is a drawing of the ship in a bathtub concept.

[rlortie]

ecent,

You ask; what takes the role of the hydraulic pump in your proposal?

Simple! Centrifugal force acquired by radial impellers keeps the liquid equal around the inner circumference of the accumulator. There is no head: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/press ... _1354.html

You can learn using the following links.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeller
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torque_converter
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_drive_system

The below You-tube link showing a number of videos done by helloha, he does not know how he has assisted me and my persistence to pursue this idea. Imagine these videos with fixed blades running parallel with the axle. The liquid after gaining the required velocity will self level itself to the perimeter making the wheel symmetrical. As can be seen it will even climb the centripetal barrier not unlike a dairyman's cream separator.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQFRkeJHprQ

I am trying to get my idea recognized by those with interest without losing my rights to patent. Rather difficult to do, so please be patient.

Ralph

[ME]

So the simplified base proposal is that when the wheel goes fast enough then the water goes over the top to the descending side and then it should be able to self-propel?

(..and then plus some additional stuff for not letting it slide too fast, or make the whole thing keel)

[rlortie]

Hello Marchello,

With your above statement, you win the biggest grin and laugh for the day.

Oh! if it were actually that simple, but unfortunately it is not. First off the static water level is above mid axis and the point is to get it all spinning with the wheel. Let cohesion do what it does best!

EDIT: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cohesion_%28chemistry%29

Ralph

[r.henley]

@rlortie,
More power will be gained from using scissors :-)
I think I'll finish my builds now. Saving the scissors for later.

p.s., I think one reason why I posted a video on youttube of starting my Mt 125 build is because it will work. Doing a little trig right now to ensure no counter load during rotation.

p.s.s., it is a good design. If the water is evenly distributed between the top and bottom bellows, then the position of the weights will slightly alter their force. Also, the length and position of the bellows will effect balance.
I just don't understand why no one thinks it will work. :-)

[Fcdriver]

IF it works, it will not be in any manner like a Bessler wheel! The Bessler wheel was hollow, surrounding a number of moving parts, which did not rotate, but only pivot.

[r.henley]

Fcdriver,
Bessler built a couple different wheels. I think this is something that has been confusing everyone. The attached drawing shows the basic mechanics of the wheel I think everyone is talking about.
Mt's 85 and 86 are the same drawing. What is shown is a duplex or tandem pump. When a piston or bucket goes down into the water, it is being filled. When it is lifted, it pumps water. At the bottom of the 2 drawings is a sump that holds water.
With the drawing that I am attaching, when the handle of the lever moves downward, the bucket or piston moves counter clockwise. And because it has water in it, the wheel rotates. This is only the basic concept. If someone has a wood lathe that can turn a 20 in. (50 cm) diameter, this would be an easy build. The other option would be to use a router.
What needs to be remembered about this design is that water weighs about 1lb per 28 cubic inches or 500 grams per 1/2 liter. And with 2 opposing levers, this design could work. It would rely on momentum but with only 2 weights or 4 weights if preferred, not much to rotate.
I have thought about stopping my 2 builds to build this but with Mt 125, it would show that Bessler knew what he was doing. And one thing I have always thought about Bessler's work is I think Bessler would want more than one person building his wheels.
There is one other thing about this drawing. If the bucket or piston only holds about 8 oz.'s or 250 grams of water, there are ways to seal it and also any water in the buckets path will also allow for more resistance.
And if people like playing around with math, this might be a good starting point for working with Bessler.
And with the levers, they might need latches to time their release. And if there is a line going to the back of the bucket, then when the lever moves away from the outside of the wheel, the bucket will move clockwise to it's starting position.
It will take a little work to find the comfort zone working with this.

http://besslerwheel.com/wiki/index.php? ... 100#MT_085