Perpetual Motion is Impossible

[Mark]

This leaves mainly two possibilities. Either Bessler's wheels were frauds (which I doubt) or Bessler's wheels were rotated by some means other than gravity.

Hmm...

"mainly"..... [ chiefly; principally; for the most part; in the main; to the greatest extent ]

So, what are the other possibilities? I am honestly interested to see what else is on your list, Jim.

[raj]

JIM-MITCH !

I concede.

YOU WIN!!!

Thank you for your wisdom and enlightment.

You are GREAT!

Bravo!

Raj

[Trevor Lyn Whatford]

Hi Jim-Mich,

it is a absolute fact, that gravity was acting on Besslers wheels.

It is also a fact, that if a wheel has more weight on one side than it does on the other side, Gravity will turn the wheel to seek a balance (the wheels center of Gravity), the wheel will keep moving until it can find the CoG, if the wheel cannot find its CoG, the wheel will keep on moving.

So what have you got?

Maybe a motion wheel, but if it has weights on it, then its a fact gravity will be acting on them.

Edit, Grammar, too many its.

[AB Hammer]

The fact or knowledge that gravity is a conservative force is finite.

And as I wrote before, the source or actual causes of gravity is still undecided.

Mankind will never learn anything NEW about gravity being a conservative force.
Gravity is what it is. A weight lifted upward causes an equal downward force, and vice versa.

There is still much to learn about what causes gravity.

Jim_mich

In bold is not the limit for a gravity wheel. What you have posted I know as the see-saw scenario. You have to look at it as on the top swing bar and your riders change position to eliminate the full effect of gravity to the one end of the see-saw on the ascending side to make the descending side fall and repeat. Each person has to do motion to get this reaction but in our case we use a mechanical device to replace the people. Something has to start the motion and what force is needed to react to.

[ME]

The main question is: what is a perpetual motion anyway?

The literal explanation is that it should rotate forever... until the mechanism breaks down (Could mechanical wear & tear be considered entropy?).

What we want with such a mechanism is the ability to perform some work.
Such a thing should be able to lift some external weight against gravity (no matter how it is internally constructed).
What happens there is that some mechanism is able to break itself apart and disconnect itself from the closed system. As in: first it was part of the earth, then it is able to reach out and able to push against the ground thus push a weight against gravity, thus splitting itself... Al that without significant initial potential, as in: Perhaps a machine 2 meters in height needs an initial potential of 1 kg lowering 2 meters.... but then it should be able to lift 1kg at least a few hundred meters. Still amazing when that would take a couple of weeks.
Where does the energy come from? (1st Law of TD)
Does such device use gravity as an energy source, and against itself?

With the right construction it should be able to put something into orbit - relative effortless (besides the construction of the mechanism itself). And when powering robotic machinery to create such a construction, that would finally result in a very slow motion explosion. Without any regards to escape velocities and similar energy requirements - like multi-staged rockets. What would happen (gravitationally) to the isolated earth-system.

So when PM is possible, then the universe (by means of PM-inventors) has found a way to undo entropy without creating chaos somewhere else. (2nd Law of Thermodynamics)

Worth investigating...

[jim_mich]

it is a absolute fact, that gravity was acting on Bessler's wheels.

Maybe a motion wheel, but if it has weights on it, then its a fact gravity will be acting on them.

Yes, it's an absolute fact that gravity acts on all materials, including Bessler's wheel. It is also an absolute fact that if a wheel has equal weight on the left side as on the right side, then the wheel will be balanced. And gravity will NOT rotate the wheel. It is also an absolute fact that weights can be coordinated one against another such that the weights can move within a wheel and still remain always balanced.

Of course balanced weights can't rotate a wheel due to gravity. But mass-balanced moving weights can urge wheel rotation.

See post #139009

[jim_mich]

Marchello, in the past, I've attempted to explain that a motion wheel is not totally constrained by thermodynamic laws. TD laws forbid spontaneous transfer of heat from colder mass (having less KE) to warmer mass (having greater KE). Such just does not ever happen in a spontaneous manner. Energy input is required such as by using a heat pump.

But there exists a very simple mechanical arrangement (Bessler's principle of PM) whereby a slower moving weight (with less KE) can spontaneously transfer much of its motion to a faster (with greater KE) moving weight. Momentum is transferred. Thus momentum is conserved.

As an example. Assume you have two weights moving a same speed. Transfer momentum from one weight to the other weight. This can be done spontaneously in a rotating environment of a wheel with little or no effect on the rotation. Do the math. Assume both weights were moving at say 20 feet/second and both weights have a same mass of two units. The weight's KE is 1/2 × 2_mass × V^2. Since 1/2 × 2 equal 1, we can make the formula very simple as KE = V^2. Thus KE of each weight equals 20^2 = 400 KE units. Total KE combined of two weights is 800 KE units.

Now one weight spontaneously gives up half its velocity to the other weight.
Weight #1 V = 10 ft/s. Its KE = 10^2 = 100 KE units.
Weight #2 v = 30 ft/s. Its KE = 30^2 = 900 KE units.
Total KE combined of two weights is 1000 KE units.

Thus we gained 200 KE units simply by allowing motion to transfer from a weight that is slowing down to a weight that is speeding up. We added no energy. Momentum was conserved. The weights changed their velocities spontaneously without consuming any energy. Thermodynamic Laws forbid KE from spontaneously transferring from cold material to warmer material. But there is no physics law that prevents motion from transferring from slower weight to faster weight. Of course such requires certain specific circumstances, which are Bessler's secret principle of perpetual motion.

[ME]

Now one weight spontaneously gives up half its velocity to the other weight.

I always thought that a change in momentum (velocity) equals the energy.
INT(p) dv = INT(m * v) dv = 0.5 * m * v^2

This can be done spontaneously in a rotating environment of a wheel with little or no effect on the rotation. Do the math.

I need another formula ;-)

My point was actually about the effects of perpetual motion (however it is done). Those effects alone could be used as either proof of impossibility, or precisely the reason to pursue a solution.

[Trevor Lyn Whatford]

Hi Jim-Mich,

your quote,

Yes, it's an absolute fact that gravity acts on all materials, including Bessler's wheel. It is also an absolute fact that if a wheel has equal weight on the left side as on the right side, then the wheel will be balanced. And gravity will NOT rotate the wheel. It is also an absolute fact that weights can be coordinated one against another such that the weights can move within a wheel and still remain always balanced.

Of course balanced weights can't rotate a wheel due to gravity. But mass-balanced moving weights can urge wheel rotation.

Jim, are you aware of the conservation of Angular Momentum, so I have to disagree, the weights cannot be moved without a force or energy input, so what do you intend to use to move the said weights? And for what purpose, as soon as you pump the weights with a external force, and get the wheel speeding up, you would then need to put even more energy into the system to work against the Centrifugal Forces. All your left with, is a very
inefficient externally driven motor.

Plus, Gravity is a force already acting on the weights and wheel, this adds friction to the wheel bearings and pivot points, in short, if gravity is not working with you, then gravity is working against you.

My Quote, It is also a fact, that if a wheel has more weight on one side than it does on the other side, Gravity will turn the wheel to seek a balance (the wheels center of Gravity), the wheel will keep moving until it can find the CoG, if the wheel cannot find its CoG, the wheel will keep on moving.

[ME]

Perhaps it's possible to exchange wheel -angular momentum and mechanism -angular momentum... (Not sure, but I suspect jim_mich is hinting to such).
As resonance is a strange thing then perhaps there's a way to keep things under frequency and tap the rest and use some fraction of that as feedback input...?

[jim_mich]

the weights cannot be moved without a force or energy input,

Ah, but the weights inside a rotating wheel can be moved without external force or energy.

There are active inertial forces inside any rotating wheel. Those forces can move weights. And the motions of the weights can cause an increase of KE. And the increased KE can be harnessed to cause wheel rotation.

The result is perpetual rotational motion. This is what you guys are seeking, right?

Or are you simply seeking a way to perpetually harness gravity?

Seeking to harness gravity by causing weights to move in and out is impossible because gravity is a conservative force. Every bit of downward force of a falling weight must be matched by upward force on the same weights. There is NEVER any extra left-over force to keep a PM wheel rotating. This is an unfortunate fact of Mother Nature. This means that gravity can't power a PM wheel.

A motion wheel does not need gravity. Gravity is a simple hindrance that can be eliminated by symmetrically balancing the weights. The motions of the weights still causes an increase of KE.

PS. I'll now be off the computer for awhile as I make wheel parts.

[Trevor Lyn Whatford]

Hi ME,
your quote,

Perhaps it's possible to exchange wheel -angular momentum and mechanism -angular momentum... (Not sure, but I suspect jim_mich is hinting to such).
As resonance is a strange thing then perhaps there's a way to keep things under frequency and tap the rest and use some fraction of that as feedback input...?

you would still need a energy input to do such a thing, wherein it would still be very inefficient, mainly because the work that needs to be done against CF and Gravity.

Most experiments prove less than the Conservation of Angular Momentum (CoAM), the only one I have seen that did prove the CoAM was the coat hanger experiment using two batteries as weights, it was a very low friction experiment, and this experiment still needed a energy input to set it in motion, and pull of the hand to move the weights in and hold them in. When the batteries were released all what was gained was lost to CF, vector friction between the vectors of the weights flying out, and the angular momentum vectors of the coat hanger, also end of weight travel collisions with the frame (coat hanger).

[Kirk]

Your assertion is incorrect. For example, consider a pipe descending into the ocean with an osmotic membrane on the down end. Fresh water weighs less than salt, about 3%. If the column is long enough the weight of fresh water will be such that the pressure differential establishes flow across the membrane. You have a perpetual fresh water fountain. Takes a long pipe, admittedly, but it IS PERPETUAL

[Kirk]

Resonance affects coupling, not total energy.

[Trevor Lyn Whatford]

the weights cannot be moved without a force or energy input,

Ah, but the weights inside a rotating wheel can be moved without external force or energy.

There are active inertial forces inside any rotating wheel. Those forces can move weights. And the motions of the weights can cause an increase of KE. And the increased KE can be harnessed to cause wheel rotation.

The result is perpetual rotational motion. This is what you guys are seeking, right?

Or are you simply seeking a way to perpetually harness gravity?

Seeking to harness gravity by causing weights to move in and out is impossible because gravity is a conservative force. Every bit of downward force of a falling weight must be matched by upward force on the same weights. There is NEVER any extra left-over force to keep a PM wheel rotating. This is an unfortunate fact of Mother Nature. This means that gravity can't power a PM wheel.

A motion wheel does not need gravity. Gravity is a simple hindrance that can be eliminated by symmetrically balancing the weights. The motions of the weights still causes an increase of KE.

PS. I'll now be off the computer for awhile as I make wheel parts.

Take your time Jim, it is better to have a dream than the wake up call.