What do you think was Bessler's energy source?ovyyus wrote:IMO, belief that gravity was Bessler's energy source will prevent the problem being solved.
It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than trying to solely profit
Moderator: scott
Re: re: It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, t
Vic Hays
Ambassador MFG LLC
Ambassador MFG LLC
re: It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than
IMO, Bessler used 'free' thermal gradients to drive his weights. He learned how to do this from his experience and observations with organs, among other things.
I think it explains why Bessler claimed it was impossible to create the overbalanced wheel (in the classic sense) and also why he was so paranoid that a buyer might want his money refunded after shown the working mechanism. Even though a solution such as this would have been classed as PM in the early 18th C, when knowledge of thermal processes was quite limited, it still would have been 'pushing the boundaries' so to speak. Right up Bessler's alley!
Leibniz suspected it but could not fathom a solution. Karl was convinced that it worked but never bought or used it, probably because of its limited power (a true 'magic' overbalancing wheel would have easily attracted the asking price from Karl as he would have been assured an everlasting place in history as the owner of such a 'holy grail').
IMO, a clever solution such as this answers so many inconsistencies in the Bessler story - from his wheel's obviously limited power to the odd inclusion of apparent thermal explorations in MT. It also explains why no one has rediscovered his secret - they're all looking in the wrong place!
Of course this is just my opinion and until I can prove it with a working demonstration (which I'm working on) it's just another crazy point of view - well, maybe not as crazy as some :)
The question is, will anyone accept a working solution that is so... down to Earth?
I think it explains why Bessler claimed it was impossible to create the overbalanced wheel (in the classic sense) and also why he was so paranoid that a buyer might want his money refunded after shown the working mechanism. Even though a solution such as this would have been classed as PM in the early 18th C, when knowledge of thermal processes was quite limited, it still would have been 'pushing the boundaries' so to speak. Right up Bessler's alley!
Leibniz suspected it but could not fathom a solution. Karl was convinced that it worked but never bought or used it, probably because of its limited power (a true 'magic' overbalancing wheel would have easily attracted the asking price from Karl as he would have been assured an everlasting place in history as the owner of such a 'holy grail').
IMO, a clever solution such as this answers so many inconsistencies in the Bessler story - from his wheel's obviously limited power to the odd inclusion of apparent thermal explorations in MT. It also explains why no one has rediscovered his secret - they're all looking in the wrong place!
Of course this is just my opinion and until I can prove it with a working demonstration (which I'm working on) it's just another crazy point of view - well, maybe not as crazy as some :)
The question is, will anyone accept a working solution that is so... down to Earth?
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John Collins
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re: It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than
Scott wrote
Years ago I made a wheel which used a car battery and one of those old trafficators - does anyone remember them? Instead of indicator lights for showing which way you wished to turn in a car, there were little illuminated signs which lifted up out of a socket on the side of the car. Anyway I adapted one of them to move a weight from side to side to turn the wheel by altering the cog. My point is that one might use almost any other kind of energy in conjunction with gravity to obtain rotation.
I once posted something about parametric oscillation which can be used in such a design as I have described to drive a device. Something along the same lines might utilise gravity and another force to cause continuous rotation.
Bessler stated that designing over-balancing wheels would only lead to failure. However he also describes his own device as sometimes having the weights move from one orbit, closer to the centre of the wheel, outward to a more distant orbit. This apparent conflict seems to me to show that the movement in or outwards is not a vital component of the design merely a consequence.
John Collins
This is where I am at. I have taken a slightly different path to Bill's because I am convinced that gravity is a major factor as the energy source. I am of the opinion (quite possibly wrong) that using a thermal gradient would not suffice, however combined with another force then gravity might yield a solution.a principle like this just might be combined with another, or modified somehow
Years ago I made a wheel which used a car battery and one of those old trafficators - does anyone remember them? Instead of indicator lights for showing which way you wished to turn in a car, there were little illuminated signs which lifted up out of a socket on the side of the car. Anyway I adapted one of them to move a weight from side to side to turn the wheel by altering the cog. My point is that one might use almost any other kind of energy in conjunction with gravity to obtain rotation.
I once posted something about parametric oscillation which can be used in such a design as I have described to drive a device. Something along the same lines might utilise gravity and another force to cause continuous rotation.
Bessler stated that designing over-balancing wheels would only lead to failure. However he also describes his own device as sometimes having the weights move from one orbit, closer to the centre of the wheel, outward to a more distant orbit. This apparent conflict seems to me to show that the movement in or outwards is not a vital component of the design merely a consequence.
John Collins
re: It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than
Hi John, there is little doubt that Bessler did create an overbalancing wheel, I'm sure you agree. I think the question is how did he lift his weights to create that overbalance. That was his secret. I think he understood that gravity alone always led to a deadend and it was this that he was trying to convey.Bessler stated that designing over-balancing wheels would only lead to failure. However he also describes his own device as sometimes having the weights move from one orbit, closer to the centre of the wheel, outward to a more distant orbit.
In the case with your 'trafficator wheel' the energy to create the overbalance obviously comes from the battery. The system that I'm exploring similarly creates an overbalance, as any Bessler solution must, but I'm attempting to furnish the lifting energy by harnessing a pre-existing thermal gradient - a different sort of battery :)
The end result is the same no matter how the weights are lifted ie; overbalance. Bessler's energy source could not be internal or easily defined, otherwise it would not qualify as 'true PM' by 18th C standards.
I think Bessler considered any solution as 'fair game' so long as it could meet the accepted 18th C criteria of PM. I feel our own exploration efforts are often somewhat limited by comparison.
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ken_behrendt
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re: It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than
I am convinced now, more than ever before, that springs were the critical secret of Bessler's wheels. He used gravity to shift the center of gravity of opposed weight pairs away from the axle and toward the rim on the descending side of a wheel while stretching a spring. Then, the process was almost immediately reversed and the spring would, as rotation continued, shift the center of gravity of an opposed weight pair back toward the axle of the wheel again. Each one directional wheel contained 4 pairs of opposed weights and they would repeat the above process in a sequential fashion so as to maintain a more or less constant angular momentum for the wheel.
His shifting mechanism was simple, reliable, and, most importantly, self-activating. As anybody who has been following my "Updates" thread over in the Community Buzz forum will note, I am convinced that I am now very close to having the actual design that Bessler used. Hopefully, within the next few weeks I will, finally, have it and be able to present a nice working WM2D model simulation here for everybody to study...
ken
His shifting mechanism was simple, reliable, and, most importantly, self-activating. As anybody who has been following my "Updates" thread over in the Community Buzz forum will note, I am convinced that I am now very close to having the actual design that Bessler used. Hopefully, within the next few weeks I will, finally, have it and be able to present a nice working WM2D model simulation here for everybody to study...
ken
On 7/6/06, I found, in any overbalanced gravity wheel with rotation rate, ω, axle to CG distance d, and CG dip angle φ, the average vertical velocity of its drive weights is downward and given by:
Vaver = -2(√2)πdωcosφ
Vaver = -2(√2)πdωcosφ
re: It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than
If it works what is the first step?
Has anyone been appointed as the one who will verify it, or is Bessler forum.com where it is first revealed?
I have been testing with overbalance and springs and I am getting all positive results.
Has anyone been appointed as the one who will verify it, or is Bessler forum.com where it is first revealed?
I have been testing with overbalance and springs and I am getting all positive results.
JB Wheeler
it exists I think I found it.
it exists I think I found it.
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bluesgtr44
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re: It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than
"Positive results"...can you elaborate a bit JB?
Finding the right solution...is usually a function of asking the right questions. -A. Einstein
Re: re: It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, t
What I would do is apply for a U.S. patent first.Wheeler wrote:If it works what is the first step?
Has anyone been appointed as the one who will verify it, or is Bessler forum.com where it is first revealed?
After that process has settled for awhile, I will notify John Collins of the news.
Then give J.C. the attorney information and a password for when he contacts them. He will probably want additional verification? A visit to my shop to see the operation by one of his U.S. associates first, followed by himself? Whatever.
I won't reveal anything to anyone other than the attorney, until J.C. is satisfied that the story is real and publishes it or declines.
This is all just talk right now.
If this modification and improvement to my wheel fails this time, it will be difficult to accept.
When I look at the MT drawings, I can tell by looking at them now, that none will work. So too, the drawings and gifs posted to this thread. All are doomed. But when I look at the AutoCad layout of my wheel, with all the parts located exactly in relation to each other, it looks like a winner to me. Unless some force creeps out and adds up like last time, it will go. The deadening forces, except for the "excess weight", look like they are equal on both sides of the axle.
Robert (The Carpenter's Boy)
There's never time to do it right the first time, but there's always time to do it over again.
There's never time to do it right the first time, but there's always time to do it over again.
re: It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than
Robert
Thanks for the advice, I believe you have the design.
It looks and sounds like you are going to be first, just because
you are now assembling it.
I have a patent attorney, but he is totally against anything that says Bessler or PM. I have talked to 3 other patent attorneys and they all express total doubt of any such quantum leap .
What I wonder is this. Is the patent office the first thing before anyone?
Has JC stated that he will send representatives for verification?
bluesgtr44
If you are talking about the words positive results, it means something you want when running tests or experiematation.
A negative result is the opposite of what you want, like if your girlfriend or wife hits you with a frying pan for asking when do we eat.
Thanks for the advice, I believe you have the design.
It looks and sounds like you are going to be first, just because
you are now assembling it.
I have a patent attorney, but he is totally against anything that says Bessler or PM. I have talked to 3 other patent attorneys and they all express total doubt of any such quantum leap .
What I wonder is this. Is the patent office the first thing before anyone?
Has JC stated that he will send representatives for verification?
bluesgtr44
If you are talking about the words positive results, it means something you want when running tests or experiematation.
A negative result is the opposite of what you want, like if your girlfriend or wife hits you with a frying pan for asking when do we eat.
JB Wheeler
it exists I think I found it.
it exists I think I found it.
re: It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than
To all those who look for clues everywhere they go.
Heres one for you.
Heres one for you.
- Attachments
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JB Wheeler
it exists I think I found it.
it exists I think I found it.
Re: re: It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, t
First question. Yes. They say the sooner the better. Any public disclosures before filing a US patent application jeopardizes foreign patents.Wheeler wrote: What I wonder is this. Is the patent office the first thing before anyone?
Has JC stated that he will send representatives for verification?
Second question. Not to me. It's just an idea.
Thanks for the confidence Wheeler, but the act of assembly means nothing in itself. I've assembled three already that were "learning experiences", no more,,,,,,,,,,
Also, a patent attorney that would turn his back on a working model of a PMM, should have his head examined.
Robert (The Carpenter's Boy)
There's never time to do it right the first time, but there's always time to do it over again.
There's never time to do it right the first time, but there's always time to do it over again.
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John Collins
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re: It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than
Wheeler asked
John Collins
No I didn't say I would but I am in touch with someone with the right credentials and backing to organise all and any verifications. In the event I'd love to attend any way so I'd come with my verifier and his colleagues anyway.Has JC stated that he will send representatives for verification?
John Collins
re: It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than
" ....but I am in touch with someone with the right credentials and backing to organise all and any verifications. In the event I'd love to attend any way so I'd come with my verifier and his colleagues anyway. "
John Collins
Sounds good.
Maybe this year, craftsman and tradesmen will create with a PMM, even more history than George Washington did with over 2000 of these kinds of people when the Continental Army crossed the Delaware River at night during a storm to whip the Hessians. (Hmmmmm. Now I wonder where those boys came from? Some may have even heard of J.E.E.B and his machine.
No offense John, you being from the UK and all.....
John Collins
Sounds good.
Maybe this year, craftsman and tradesmen will create with a PMM, even more history than George Washington did with over 2000 of these kinds of people when the Continental Army crossed the Delaware River at night during a storm to whip the Hessians. (Hmmmmm. Now I wonder where those boys came from? Some may have even heard of J.E.E.B and his machine.
No offense John, you being from the UK and all.....
Robert (The Carpenter's Boy)
There's never time to do it right the first time, but there's always time to do it over again.
There's never time to do it right the first time, but there's always time to do it over again.
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ken_behrendt
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re: It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than
In 1776, Johann Bessler had only been dead for about 31 years and it is quite possible that some of the Hessian troops Washington caught by surprise that early morning of December 26 might have actually visited a public demonstration of one of Bessler's wheels when he (the Hessian) was a child!
I am now leaning away from the idea of pursuing a patent for my design for Bessler's one-directional wheel in the event that it proves workable in the next few weeks. I have done a lot of thinking about this and have decided that if I am successful and I do have Bessler's actual mechanism, then if I tried to patent it, it would really be an effort to patent Johann Bessler's invention...not my own! If I do find the mechanism Bessler most likely used, I think that I will freely give it to the world so as to make up for Bessler's failure to do so during his lifetime. I like to think that if Bessler had died a natural death, say from old age, then he might have made a similar decision as he neared the end of his life.
Of course, any later improvements I might make to the design I would probably want to patent. Bessler's original mechanism was simple and reliable, but, I do not think it was the most efficient or powerful possible. There will still be plenty of opportunities to make patentable improvements to it.
ken
I am now leaning away from the idea of pursuing a patent for my design for Bessler's one-directional wheel in the event that it proves workable in the next few weeks. I have done a lot of thinking about this and have decided that if I am successful and I do have Bessler's actual mechanism, then if I tried to patent it, it would really be an effort to patent Johann Bessler's invention...not my own! If I do find the mechanism Bessler most likely used, I think that I will freely give it to the world so as to make up for Bessler's failure to do so during his lifetime. I like to think that if Bessler had died a natural death, say from old age, then he might have made a similar decision as he neared the end of his life.
Of course, any later improvements I might make to the design I would probably want to patent. Bessler's original mechanism was simple and reliable, but, I do not think it was the most efficient or powerful possible. There will still be plenty of opportunities to make patentable improvements to it.
ken
On 7/6/06, I found, in any overbalanced gravity wheel with rotation rate, ω, axle to CG distance d, and CG dip angle φ, the average vertical velocity of its drive weights is downward and given by:
Vaver = -2(√2)πdωcosφ
Vaver = -2(√2)πdωcosφ
re: It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than
Very intresting guys:
Thank you very much for your input.
Ken:
Thanks for building that model, you tried.
wheeler:
Thank you for your suggetion using a bycicle wheel.
This is what I tryed, I used WM2D but instead of using strings or a bycicle wheel I pinned down the weights on a wheel in the position they were going to be, the sets at 1 & 7 o'clock and the sets at 2 & 8 o'clock don't change so I played with the other 2 sets by manualy locate them in different positions, and regardless of where I put them it always had a positive movement on the turning side. If the Wm2D is giving a false positive then all of you guys who have not built it nor have have shown why it does not work, or given any reason other "in your belief", are correct. I don't know how but I think I'll attempt to build, if for no other reason than to see who is right, I hope I am. I thought that the design was simple enough to require no further "proof" but I was wrong (again).
Thanks again guys and don't forget to lets us know what happend if any of you builds it before I do (the ones who believe anyway) :-)
I can't help it but my brain is already designing a pendulum type being that some of you don't believe in OOB. Give me time and I'll come up with something.
Robert:
I sure hope you really make it work, but if it doesn't, don't let it get you down. We are very close. Besides; are you not the carpenter's son?
Turulato
Thank you very much for your input.
Ken:
Thanks for building that model, you tried.
wheeler:
Thank you for your suggetion using a bycicle wheel.
This is what I tryed, I used WM2D but instead of using strings or a bycicle wheel I pinned down the weights on a wheel in the position they were going to be, the sets at 1 & 7 o'clock and the sets at 2 & 8 o'clock don't change so I played with the other 2 sets by manualy locate them in different positions, and regardless of where I put them it always had a positive movement on the turning side. If the Wm2D is giving a false positive then all of you guys who have not built it nor have have shown why it does not work, or given any reason other "in your belief", are correct. I don't know how but I think I'll attempt to build, if for no other reason than to see who is right, I hope I am. I thought that the design was simple enough to require no further "proof" but I was wrong (again).
Thanks again guys and don't forget to lets us know what happend if any of you builds it before I do (the ones who believe anyway) :-)
I can't help it but my brain is already designing a pendulum type being that some of you don't believe in OOB. Give me time and I'll come up with something.
Robert:
I sure hope you really make it work, but if it doesn't, don't let it get you down. We are very close. Besides; are you not the carpenter's son?
Turulato
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