The missing factor

[bluesgtr44]

It's been awhile since I have put anything up. As we all know...this is one hard nut to crack.

We already have many factors to work with in our attempts to figure out what it would take to simulate what Bessler had been able to achieve. I'm not talking about any basic approach to solving PM....I'm talking about Bessler here and the witness account information as to how these wheels performed.

The one factor that surprises me that is not available......is the time. I cannot find any reference as to the time it took for the wheel to reach maximum speed. There are references as to how many revolutions, but nothing about the time.

If this factor were available for each of his wheels in the same manner as the size and such, would it not be a pretty good factor mathematically to get a better idea as to the amount of force needed for that?

Watches and intricate time pieces were very prevalent at the time. I just can't understand why nobody actually timed the acceleration rate. They timed the max rate of speed so why not time it takes to reach the max RPM? This is the one function that I would really like to find for each of his wheels. I think we would find a pretty big difference between the uni and bi directional wheels.


Steve

[sleepy]

Great to hear from you!
I have missed your input.
As we all know,I have feeble math skills,but if you know the max RPM,and you know how many revs it took to reach max RPM,you should have a close approximation as to acceleration rate.
Hey,don't be a stranger.

[AB Hammer]

Great to here from you Steve again. Your input is always good. Unfortunately X amount of turns to full speed is all we got.

[John doe]

Good point.
I noticed the external pendulums in some renditions of bessler's wheel and was wondering about them. I have seen the explanation that they were some sort of speed regulator so this could possibly have an effect on the acceleration also.

[Sam Peppiatt]

bluesgtr44, It might not help------I suspect all four wheels were the same. The idea being that there is only one way to do it. What is much more likely, seams to me is, the bi directional wheels had a reversing link. When he pushed the wheel it would shift the link, which would change the direction of rotation. In other words, forward, reverse, and neutral. It makes sense, cars don't have two engines, one for forward and another to back up. The old steam locomotives all had a reversing gear. But I could be wrong. Sam Peppiatt

Live your life inspired anew, LYDIA

[John doe]

Bessler said there was more than one way. I believe he even stated that magnets were a possible solution but he had problems getting the neodynium magnets that he needed.

[jim_mich]

Bessler said there was more than one way. I believe he even stated that magnets were a possible solution but he had problems getting the neodynium magnets that he needed.

John doe doesn't know what he is talking about.

Alnico magnets were first developed in 1931.
Rare earth magnets were developed in the 1970's.
Before these, the only magnets were iron.
Before electric generators, magnets were produced by hammering iron while it was oriented north and south, and were very weak.

Bessler build his wheels between 1711 and 1721. This was 220 years before the first Alnico magnets, and 260 years before rare earth magnets were developed.

Some have claimed that Bessler wrote that his wheels operated by different principles, but what Bessler actually wrote was that his later wheels were started rotating by difference principles. The later wheels required a hand push to start. The early wheels were self-starting by stored-up OOB of weight.

[ME]

http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... =3996#3996
21. Two fine magnetic stones.

[John doe]

What else we need to examine? We have checked all inlets and outlets in the room. Other members have grounded their ears on the floor to hear the noise. We have seen wheel raising weights and water with Archimedean screw. Orffyreus demonstrations are impressive and prove the ability of the wheel to move forever without a fraud. Do you still have some doubts?’ Count Karl questioned.

Gravesande took out a magnetic needle from his pocket and flashed it in front of the committee members.

‘Let me try to ascertain if wheel is driven by permanent magnets.’ Gravesande expressed his intention.

‘No sir, I have already told you that my wheel is driven by gravity though I admit that permanent magnet too is inexhaustible source of power and capable of creating a perpetual motion if supported by a right design.’ Orffyreus tried to explain.

‘But how can a magnet create a continuous motion? It is against the principle again.’ Gravesande remarked.

‘Yes, I equally doubt it.’ Baron Fischer added.

‘When a magnet attracts a piece of iron with its power, the movement is analogues to a piston that is moved by force of steam. But in later there are valves that directs steam to push piston in a reverse direction also- hence cause continuous motion backward and forward but how is it possible with a magnet which can only give rise to one type of force – attraction only? Am I correct professor Gravesanded?’ Count Karl enquired.

‘ Yes, indeed your excellency! Even if one uses some technique to cut off or intercept attraction or repulsion of a permanent magnet, such technique too would involve in all cases just that gain or loss of vis viva which is demanded by principle. Moreover, it is impossible to intercept a gravity or magnetic force to create a perpetual motion.’ Gravesande maintained.

‘For your kind information, reverend sirs, I would like to remind you all here that Peter Peregneius was able to invent a perpetual motion machine, which used power of magnets. By using magnets, I can also design a machine, which would go forever. However, I have a practical difficulty in getting powerful magnets therefore, I have not tried it. Moreover, I do not need to do so as I have already designed gravity perpetual motion machine with great power and far superior to a magnetic perpetual motion machine.’ Orffyreus told.

Gravesande took magnetic needle in his hand and approached the wheel to examine it.
http://orffyre.tripod.com/id41.html
Now I do not claim to know this is a factual account of the actual event but it is some information that I ran across. If this is indeed false then I apologize.

[Fletcher]

John doe .. just a word of friendly advice.

If you are quoting a source of information as you've done above please give the reference material so others may know where it came from. More importantly they can gauge how reliable that information source might be.

ETA: web site provided.

What you've quoted looks somewhat familiar to an Indian gentleman's web site IINM. AFAIK the content is a figment of his imagination and not supported by other background documents of record.

Not every source from every web site is even remotely reliable and most of us have come across them at some time or other.

Let's try to stick to 'facts' rather than conjecture, or at least label conjecture as such. That way we avoid wasted effort and confusion.

My apologies if I am wrong about this one but it seems to good to be true at many levels.

[John doe]

Agreed.
I was working on posting the information from my iPhone while currently out and about which is not necessarily the most efficient for if communicating complex and or fact related discussions in short blurbs so please bear with me I am well aware of standard protocol and make every effort to be thorough and concise. If I make a mistake about something I will make every effort to clarify given proper time. If I truly forget something or make a mistake feel free to point it out so I can rectify it as my time permits.

[jim_mich]

This is a mixture of fiction and historical fact. It is an imagined account. Most of it is untrue, with little bits and pieces of truth scattered thru.

The only magnets back during Bessler's time were loadstones. And such were extremely weak. There is no way that they could rotate Bessler's wheel.

PS. John's quote was from http://orffyre.tripod.com/bessler/id41.html
I found it almost instantly by doing a Google search of the unusual phrase "grounded their ears on the floor"

[John doe]

I'm sure someone has contacted the site administrator to get a reference for the information from this "conversation"?
Also it seems pretty probable that some sort of documentation was kept of this important demonstration either by Bessler,Count Karl or Gravensande to confirm the actual account of what transpired. Weather this is the actual account of what transpired is open for debate until further proof is provided.
I do find it interesting to note that there was no Transcript of the conversations of the previous demonstrations only 3rd person accounts which is also believable.

[John doe]

More importantly to me, Like bessler I can also see how my idea could be adapted to use magnets. Although I'm not sure if I agree with bessler that gravity is a superior force for motivation of a PMM.

Jim_Mich I'm sure with all of your experience you can also confirm or deny the magnet theory of energy...

[Fletcher]

Who is Deva Ramananda ?

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=deva+ramananda

Below is from the Tripod Site.

Deva Ramananda's Stand on this Website

Thanks to Deva Ramananda! With such ancient background and Vedic holistic approach in mind, Deva Ramananda wanted my web site and books to be different from others on this subject. In addition to maintaining the factual information about the events in the life of Orffyreus and his wheels, Deva Ramananda also wanted my website to be highly “suggestive� containing in it some “spiritual element� and mysticism in harmony with Orffyreus’ mental attitude, his religious faith, his way of life and his invention. He wanted “heart and soul of the readers of the websites to resonate with that of Orffyreus so that they land more easily into the secret of Orffyreus.� Being trained in mainstream science, when I had expressed my concern over not to incorporate any mysticism in the main story of Orffyreus, Deva Ramananda chided me justifying his point of view. Here, I still recollect his words. He told me somewhat angrily: “Rascal, why you do not understand the esoteric laws of nature, the fact that getting knowledge through process of perception, conception, recognition and understanding of any secret thing involves a “spiritual dimension�? It is unfortunate that you still seem to be unaware of power of intuition based on faith. Here, when we have a challenge of knowing the secret of machine that was lost with death of Orffyreus some 250 years ago, your bad science and your training in it cannot be of much help in revealing the secret. Where is the way except surrendering to the great soul of Orffyreus? Did you forget story of Eklavya and Dronacharya, great master of archery? Make no mistake. Your science which rejects perpetual motion is certainly pseudoscience! Don’t consider anything to be fiction that I have spoken so far about Orffyreus as they contain most important clues about the invention known to me through my power of intuition and transcendental meditation. While making a reading of your website, I want heart and soul of your readers to resonate with that of Orffyreus so that they land more easily into the secret of Orffyreus.�