The missing factor

[Andyb]

DAXWC,well said you have a good use of the written word i could take a leaf from your book ,i agree with you regarding the leaverage and i think i have that solved and as ever it is as bessler said the key seems to be they must turn in there move ,when i have got something up and running i will share more ,all the best Andy.

[Fletcher]

Still to cause a gravity wheel to rotate requires an unbalance. To create this unbalance means at least the drop of one atom of mass. This one atom needs to be picked up again at a reduction of force and energy; therefore one has to be able to beat mechanical advantage’s disadvantage or use another energy source.

"But did I not, in Part One, devote more
than one line to a discussion of the type of "excess impetus" that
people should look for in my devices? Once more I will humbly extol
the virtues of this passage to my next worthy reader. Even Wagner,
wherever he is now, will have heard that one pound can cause the
raising of more than one pound. He writes that, to date, no one has
ever found a mechanical arrangement sufficient for the required
task. He's right! So am I, and does anyone see why? What if I
were to teach the proper method of mechanical application? Then
people would say: "Now I understand!� AP pg 335

Good to see you're still around dax.

And right on the money as usual.

......................

"excess impetus" that people should look for in my devices ?

will have heard that one pound can cause the raising of more than one pound.

He writes that, to date, no one has ever found a mechanical arrangement sufficient for the required task.

He's right !

So am I, and does anyone see why ?

What if I were to teach the proper method of mechanical application ?

Then people would say: " Now I understand ! �

..........................

The only conflict in what Bessler says is this ...

He writes that, to date, no one has ever found a mechanical arrangement sufficient for the required task.

He's right !

So am I

...........................

Bessler conflicts with Wagner's statement about 'to date, no one', when clearly Bessler says he is the one and only to have done it. Therefore Wagner's statement about 'to date' is incorrect. So why did he say "He's right !"

That is what leaves the door open a smidgen IMO.

ETA: maybe I have been taking that passage too literally.

Wagner says 'to date, no one' and Bessler says 'he's right'.

Therefore Bessler excludes himself from the tally.

[jim_mich]

Wagner writes that, to date, no one has ever found a mechanical arrangement sufficient for the required task (the task of one pound cause the raising of more than one pound).

Bessler replies that Wagner is right.

If Wagner was right, then Bessler admitted that his wheel is not what Wagner was assuming Bessler's claims to be.

Let me repeat. Wagner assumed that Bessler was claiming his wheel was rotated by gravity. He assumed this because he heard that Bessler's wheel used weights. Wagner claimed that for such a wheel to work, one pound would need to cause the lifting of more than one pound. Wagner knew such was impossible. Wagner wrote that to date none had ever found a mechanical arrangement sufficient for the required task.

And Bessler agrees with Wagner. Bessler's wheels were built before Wagner made this statement. So Bessler is agreeing with Wagner, that as of that current date, none had ever found a mechanical arrangement sufficient for the required task. This means that even Bessler had not found a mechanical arrangement sufficient for causing a lighter weight to lift a heavier weight.

Thus Bessler writes, "He's right, I also, who it understand?"

So what was Bessler right about? What was Bessler's claim? Bessler claimed a perpetual motion wheel rotated by weights, which weights gain force from their own swinging (Pg 19 & 20 of DT)
Or alternate translation: after once impressed force the (German word: Schwunges = momentum, swing, impetus, sweep, energy)
Bessler claimed a PM wheel rotated by the motions of weights, which weights gained their motions from their own "Schwunges", in other words, from the motions or swinging of the weights.

[Trevor Lyn Whatford]

Hi Jim_Mich,

falling levers swing and they create leverage to do lots of other stuff with, if the leverage force is transferred to where it is needed. There are a lot of lever systems in the MT drawings, wherein Bessler suggested he would show how to connect them when the time was right (when he got paid I should think).

[Fletcher]

Ain't language a wonderful thing !

With proper care and dedication it can be used to wonderfully obfuscate clarity whilst giving the opposite impression.

We have sooo many daily examples here on this discussion board without even beginning to parse Bessler's translated Old German.

Literally, Bessler excludes himself from Wagner's gravity unbalanced wheels summary (to date, pre and post date) and points in another direction for his solution.

If Wagner had said 'until now' (a more fluid statement) rather than 'to date' (specific) [they both mean the same thing, almost] then Bessler's replay can take a different meaning and sets him apart as the first to succeed post-failure period.

As we know Bessler didn't want to be clear and concise. He could of easily just said ... Before me, he is right ! So am I etc.

I don't think anything will be entirely resolved by only literally interpreting what is translated. There will be times in retrospect when it is true and times when it is not, once/if the secret is rediscovered.

[John doe]

it is demonstratively false that it requires the same amount of force to pull them apart as the force of attraction.

Yes, sliding magnets sideways requires a weaker force. It also requires that the weaker force to be exerted over a greater distance. Thus total force × distance ends up the same either way. There is no free energy from permanent magnets.

That also is no a true statement.
This is a link to a more correct application of lateral shear forces of a magnet.

https://www.supermagnete.de/eng/faq/Why ... n-the-wall

I realize that particular discussion was directly between me and Jim_Mich but I would like to open the question up to others on the forums as one of the newest members, does what I'm saying about lateral forces and magnets make sense or am I overlooking something? I realize that as Jim said people have tried magnets as an energy source for many years and just because the math says it should be possible does not make it easy. I'm especially interested in any insights on the difficulties specific to magnets and pmm in general from someone has has more knowledge and or experience of them.

[Trevor Lyn Whatford]

Hi John doe,

I think magnetic motors are possible, here is a link to my thinking,

http://www.real-free-energy.co.uk/new_page_1.htm#Page 2

[jim_mich]

See my post from 12 years ago....



(Note that the ring magnet at the top of the side view of the wheel is drawn wrong with the red and blue colors switched.)



This is just one of a number of my attempted permanent magnet motors. So it is a little irritating when it is implied that I don't know things about magnets.

[Art]

Welcome John Doe ,

Yes , I periodically do experiments involving magnets , not particularly because I believe Bessler used them but because he possibly could have and because of the availability of really strong ones to us now which just were't available as little as 10 years ago .

Modern Neodymium magnets have field strengths which are so much higher than what was available just years ago that I think it will be quite some time before they will have been properly investigated by cluey amateures prepared to explore .

While I can't see any feasible way at the moment that Bessler could have got the performance out of his wheels that he did with the strength of the magnets available to him , I still don't see that it is out of the question . Bessler would have been well familiar with the notion of magnetism and magnetic compasses as he was also of the earths rotation and orbits in the solar system since he seemed to be a bit of an amateur astronomer among his many other interests .Magnetic force existed in the 17th century just as it does today - so who knows what he could have discovered that we havn't yet ? . He boasted of been able to explain the real causes of all kinds of natural events IIRC and his all encompassing theory may have included magnetism !. You should find discussions of this in old posts here if you do some searching.

I don't think a lot of work has been done on specifically trying to duplicate his wheels using magnetism in this forum but I'm pretty sure you will find some discussion if you search back a few years .

If you are looking for an untravelled area to get involved in that in my opinion has a bit of potential and that hasn't been done to death already ,- I think you have found it ! : )

[ME]

If you look at the required amount of energy to create those magnets, I can hardly believe it will ever become "Free-Green-energy".

[Trevor Lyn Whatford]

Hi ME,

its all about the RPM.
An 1 hp unit could run for more than 30 years without a recharge, though your energy payback could be less than a month.

[John doe]

John doe,

If what you are implying were to be true, then a permanent magnet motor could be made. Simply allow the magnet to be pulled straight inward, then pull/slide the magnet sideways and thus out of the magnetic field. If indeed there is less force needed to remove the magnet than is generated by the pull-together of the magnet, then you have an imbalance of force that can be engineered into a permanent magnet motor.

Men have tried for years to make permanent magnet motors. It can't be done. Magnetism is a conservative force.

When you tell me that I don't know about such things, you are simply showing your own ignorance.

My post was not directed to you because we obviously have differences of opinion. Why are you making this personal?
All that I did was to say that in my opinion it was possible to use magnetism as a force to power a PMM and to show you my supporting evidence for my reasoning. This is the basis for a "Rational discussion".
What you did was to say that A PMM using magnetism was "impossible" and that I was ignorant for thinking as such. This is not a "Rational discussion".
If anyone should be defensive its me. This is why I was asking for other rational opinions on the topic as such and now you show me posts from previous years showing that you experimented with magnets as a source of power for your PMM as if your an expert on it? What you should have said was " I used to believe it was possible (for x reasons) but after x amount of unsuccessful attempts I gave up trying ".

[jim_mich]

Maybe I did not make myself clear. How about I try again...

When you tell me that I don't know about such things, you are simply showing your own ignorance concerning myself and my knowledge of magnets.

I have no idea how old you are or how many years you have studied magnetism or perpetual motion. You seem to be young and inexperienced. I've been actively at this for more about 20 years. And for about 30 years before that I mostly sketched ideas in a notebook. So I've been at this for half a century. And then you question my knowledge by asking other members what they think. That was simply not cool on your part.

Respectfully,
Jim from the great lakes state of Michigan

[ME]

Hi ME,

its all about the RPM.
An 1 hp unit could run for more than 30 years without a recharge, though your energy payback could be less than a month.

I think RPM's are not relevant, but perhaps the 1 hp is.
I wonder if this factory can get of the grid by using magnetic motors.
If not, then what would be the benefit of pure magnetic motors over electric?

Marchello E.

[cloud camper]

John, just to help you out with the rules around here, Dear Leader has stated
that he is the smartest whip on the forum so the idea here is if he was unable
to produce a working design, then you don't have a chance.

DL is still very upset his lies were exposed about working "motion" devices and so someone must pay for this loss of status.

The rest of us are totally on to his tricks so the only ones left to punish are
the newbies.

Welcome to the forum!