The missing factor

[Furcurequs]

Hello,

I have an electrical engineering degree, and during my college years in the 1980s, I worked seven quarters in the research and development labs of IBM in south Florida. Six of those were as a part of my school's co-operative education program and one was independently one summer.

Although I worked in several different and interesting groups, including a robot design group and even the design group of one of the IBM personal computers (the PC/AT), I think I enjoyed my three quarters in the computer switch mode power supply design groups most. I got lots of hands on experience in the lab doing mostly technician type work doing tests for the design engineers.

I remember thinking at the time that if I were one of the engineers, I would prefer doing my own experiments rather than trusting some college kid or a technician to do them for me, but quite a few of the engineers seemed to trust us and so didn't spend very much time in the lab themselves.

Anyway, while there I remember reading through some inductor and transformer design manuals and thinking that the normal way of using magnetic materials seemed to be to just take advantage of the rotating magnetic domains to store energy in the inductors or transfer energy between the windings in a transformer.

I began wondering, since the magnetic field was actually a property of the magnetic material itself, if it might be possible to align the magnetic domains like in a permanent magnet and then actually extract energy directly from the magnetic field itself. If possible that would mean it might be a form of atomic energy that if extracted might cause some change to the materials themselves.

Some time later I saw Joseph Newman on The Tonight Show with Johnny Carson and got a bit excited thinking that maybe he had done something like I had been thinking about.

This was before the internet, so I had to do a bit of digging to find any information on his stuff. I'm still not sure if there is anything to his ideas (and I found out they were also a bit different from mine - he didn't think the energy came from the magnets themselves, for instance), but I was disappointed to discover how crude his tests and designs actually were and that there wasn't really much in the way of reliable data.

Regardless, I've been thinking about that stuff ever since and now have several rather unique ideas of my own that I still need to get tested. I have some test devices partially built, but I have a ways to go before I will know anything for sure.

I have at least two ideas that I would consider to be designs for permanent magnet motors that would extract energy in the form of kinetic energy, of course, and at least one design for a permanent magnet powered electrical generator with no moving parts.

My ideas are still for the most part speculative and untested, but I'm a bit optimistic. What I would be attempting to do in one device, a few years after I had had the initial idea I discovered that there was apparently some evidence that something quite similar actually happened in nature - which is rather exciting for me. The scientists who are aware of the phenomenon don't seem to have realized what it could mean if it could be done with/within the field of a permanent magnet.

(Sorry to not be more specific, but it might tip my hand before I'm ready to share details.)

Another thing I noticed is that the most magnetic of the elements such as iron and cobalt(?) sit in the trough (or at the peak depending on the particular graph) of the graph of the binding energy per nucleon of the elements. That means that the most magnetic elements are the ones that you wouldn't want to use for nuclear fusion of fission. It would take energy to break them apart or to fuse them, it seems.

25 years or so ago, I saw an article in my local newspaper about a local man who had dropped out of medical school to pursue an inventive idea of his. It appeared he was claiming to have a working prototype of a device that extracted electrical energy out of permanent magnets by passing specially treated wires through the magnetic field while somehow making use of the Barkhausen jump effect. He claimed the device could power a house and you had to replace the ceramic permanent magnets about three times a year at a cost of about $30 a pop. So, that would be about $90 a year for the fuel source at the time.

The article had the obligatory skeptic from an engineering school (I believe from Rensselaer) stating he doubted that it actually worked.

This seemed to me like the most legitimate "free energy" claim I had ever heard and also seemed to be in agreement with my own earlier thoughts, but I've not heard another thing about it since nor have I been able to find anything at all about it on the internet.

A friend of mine who is an acquaintance of his (or knows someone who knows him?) told me a few years ago the guy was still around but he didn't know what happened with his invention.

Though the article read as if he actually had a working prototype, maybe it was just another case of a self deluded person who went public. I don't know.

Oh, and FWIW, from what I've read about Bessler, I personally don't believe his claims about his wheel had anything to do with magnetism.

Dwayne

[John doe]

Maybe I did not make myself clear. How about I try again...

When you tell me that I don't know about such things, you are simply showing your own ignorance concerning myself and my knowledge of magnets.

I have no idea how old you are or how many years you have studied magnetism or perpetual motion. You seem to be young and inexperienced. I've been actively at this for more about 20 years. And for about 30 years before that I mostly sketched ideas in a notebook. So I've been at this for half a century. And then you question my knowledge by asking other members what they think. That was simply not cool on your part.

Respectfully,
Jim from the great lakes state of Michigan

I know it's easy to misinterpret statements on forums. I have tried reading this a number of times and can only interpret it as HUGE amounts of humor and sarcasm. 😂😂😂

[John doe]

Hi ME,

its all about the RPM.
An 1 hp unit could run for more than 30 years without a recharge, though your energy payback could be less than a month.

Since one of my goals of my PMM will be to generate electricity I was curious as to what would be better more rpm,hp or torque? Assuming I was attempting to power 1 typical Household with AC voltage based up typical rates of usage?

[cloud camper]

Yes John, Dear Leader is our biggest source of comedy around here.

The only thing he as demonstrated proficiency at is excuses, lies and
and intimidating newbies!

[ME]

Since one of my goals of my PMM will be to generate electricity I was curious as to what would be better more rpm,hp or torque?

You need all. You want torque applied to some flywheel to get high RPM (to reduce any noise), then you gear things for your dynamo to tap some hp, or just use the rotation directly like they did in the steam powered industrial age.
I would suggest (just for comparison reasons) to calculate everything to some potential energy.
IMHO the ability to lift some external object is the most objective way to measure the output of any PMM.

[John doe]

Anyway, while there I remember reading through some inductor and transformer design manuals and thinking that the normal way of using magnetic materials seemed to be to just take advantage of the rotating magnetic domains to store energy in the inductors or transfer energy between the windings in a transformer.

I began wondering, since the magnetic field was actually a property of the magnetic material itself, if it might be possible to align the magnetic domains like in a permanent magnet and then actually extract energy directly from the magnetic field itself. If possible that would mean it might be a form of atomic energy that if extracted might cause some change to the materials themselves.

I have at least two ideas that I would consider to be designs for permanent magnet motors that would extract energy in the form of kinetic energy, of course, and at least one design for a permanent magnet powered electrical generator with no moving parts.

My ideas are still for the most part speculative and untested, but I'm a bit optimistic. What I would be attempting to do in one device, a few years after I had had the initial idea I discovered that there was apparently some evidence that something quite similar actually happened in nature - which is rather exciting for me. The scientists who are aware of the phenomenon don't seem to have realized what it could mean if it could be done with/within the field of a permanent magnet.

(Sorry to not be more specific, but it might tip my hand before I'm ready to share details.)

Another thing I noticed is that the most magnetic of the elements such as iron and cobalt(?) sit in the trough (or at the peak depending on the particular graph) of the graph of the binding energy per nucleon of the elements. That means that the most magnetic elements are the ones that you wouldn't want to use for nuclear fusion of fission. It would take energy to break them apart or to fuse them, it seems.

Oh, and FWIW, from what I've read about Bessler, I personally don't believe his claims about his wheel had anything to do with magnetism.

Dwayne

That's a great story! I believe everything you said is true. Although I am not an engineer I understand and believe what you say is true. I do not know the specific phenomenon you are talking about but I have recently read a few research papers on Similar (same?) phenomenon and they agree completely with my similar theories. I plan on having a working prototype by Easter and posting a video ( of a wheel) rotating (ohhh ahhh) I'm not interested in proving my idea or wheel is real ( in sure their will be nay Sayers) I'm just going to do it for my own satisfaction and to let the "believers" know its been done. However with your background and similar theories I could see a possible mutually beneficial collaboration in the near future as I don't believe our ideas directly compete against each other (except in the end result) in which case it would be up to the free market to decide. I am working on a wheel for energy creation where it seems to me you are looking for a mechanica? means of extracting energy from a magnetic/electro magnetic source. Regardless thanks for the extremely informative post!

[Trevor Lyn Whatford]

Hi ME,

its all about the RPM.
An 1 hp unit could run for more than 30 years without a recharge, though your energy payback could be less than a month.

I think RPM's are not relevant, but perhaps the 1 hp is.
I wonder if this factory can get of the grid by using magnetic motors.
If not, then what would be the benefit of pure magnetic motors over electric?

Marchello E.

A high RPM motor would be great for generating electric for quick charging electric cars. Think of all the energy that goes into making petrol and how many gallons you would need in a cars life time. (Edit, I wonder how much energy is used to make a car engine.)

I liked the video I was surprised at how small the actual charging energy was used to charge the magnets.

As for the rest of the factory my high torque low RPM gravity machine will drive that ;-)

Edit again, in answer to your main question, they would be a lot cheaper and more grid friendly than solar energy.

[ME]

Don't listen to that guy. @ video 11:08: Current=12800 A (12.8 kA), Voltage=2.43 kV

Think of all the energy that goes into making petrol and how many gallons you would need in a cars life time.

Ah well, we'll finally run out of dinosaurs anyway.
But if we'd have "free-energy" magnet-motors here in Europe and the US, and think we are trying to save the planet, it would be a hard sell to blame China for the pollution in creating those things; while also shifting "fuel" dependency slightly towards the east.
I'm more interesting in your gravity machine :-)

They would be a lot cheaper and more grid friendly than solar energy

I don't know, that's why I'm actually interested in (let's call it) "production-Joules". Those solar panels could just charge local batteries (or something similar).

[Trevor Lyn Whatford]

Hi ME,

I'm more interesting in your gravity machine :-)

I will see what I can do.

A Gravity wheel well be the answer, but its got to be simple, so it can use wide weights, then it can be made wider to increase the output. If it can make 3 kw a hour, and cost less than 8 thousand pounds installed then its a winner, and will out perform solar panels.

[Furcurequs]

Anyway, while there I remember reading through some inductor and transformer design manuals and thinking that the normal way of using magnetic materials seemed to be to just take advantage of the rotating magnetic domains to store energy in the inductors or transfer energy between the windings in a transformer.

I began wondering, since the magnetic field was actually a property of the magnetic material itself, if it might be possible to align the magnetic domains like in a permanent magnet and then actually extract energy directly from the magnetic field itself. If possible that would mean it might be a form of atomic energy that if extracted might cause some change to the materials themselves.

I have at least two ideas that I would consider to be designs for permanent magnet motors that would extract energy in the form of kinetic energy, of course, and at least one design for a permanent magnet powered electrical generator with no moving parts.

My ideas are still for the most part speculative and untested, but I'm a bit optimistic. What I would be attempting to do in one device, a few years after I had had the initial idea I discovered that there was apparently some evidence that something quite similar actually happened in nature - which is rather exciting for me. The scientists who are aware of the phenomenon don't seem to have realized what it could mean if it could be done with/within the field of a permanent magnet.

(Sorry to not be more specific, but it might tip my hand before I'm ready to share details.)

Another thing I noticed is that the most magnetic of the elements such as iron and cobalt(?) sit in the trough (or at the peak depending on the particular graph) of the graph of the binding energy per nucleon of the elements. That means that the most magnetic elements are the ones that you wouldn't want to use for nuclear fusion of fission. It would take energy to break them apart or to fuse them, it seems.

Oh, and FWIW, from what I've read about Bessler, I personally don't believe his claims about his wheel had anything to do with magnetism.

Dwayne

That's a great story! I believe everything you said is true. Although I am not an engineer I understand and believe what you say is true. I do not know the specific phenomenon you are talking about but I have recently read a few research papers on Similar (same?) phenomenon and they agree completely with my similar theories. I plan on having a working prototype by Easter and posting a video ( of a wheel) rotating (ohhh ahhh) I'm not interested in proving my idea or wheel is real ( in sure their will be nay Sayers) I'm just going to do it for my own satisfaction and to let the "believers" know its been done. However with your background and similar theories I could see a possible mutually beneficial collaboration in the near future as I don't believe our ideas directly compete against each other (except in the end result) in which case it would be up to the free market to decide. I am working on a wheel for energy creation where it seems to me you are looking for a mechanica? means of extracting energy from a magnetic/electro magnetic source. Regardless thanks for the extremely informative post!

Hey John,

I'd like to emphasize that I consider my ideas to be highly speculative in nature, and so I wouldn't dare call them "true" without actual experimental evidence of their validity. Mainstream scientists, of course, don't believe that it is possible to extract energy from permanent magnets (beyond the potential energy available in their attraction to other magnets or metal), so I realize I'm operating at the fringe here.

I try to approach things by first asking the question "If this were actually possible, how would I do it?" and then if I can come up with some sort of design that I've never seen before I try to build and test it. I try to never forget, though, that without a successful experiment an idea is just an idea and could certainly be mistaken.

Here's a quote from Richard Feynman along those lines that I happened to see recently:

It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong.

I think that some people can really get into trouble when they start believing that their untested ideas can't be wrong. We've had to contend with some of those people here who get so carried away that they waste their and others' time defending what they want to believe rather than just doing what needs to be done to find out if their ideas are actually true.

Anyway, I personally could have returned to IBM after college and probably had a quite decent career as an engineer there, but I took a major gamble and gave that up so that I could find the freedom to follow my own inspirations. That has paid off for me creatively - I'm certainly not hurting for ideas or for projects to work on - but it hasn't yet paid off financially. ...and we'll not talk about my personal life (because, sadly, I ended up without one - lol).

Unfortunately, I am also currently struggling with some health problems, so for now my magnet ideas are on the back burner. I hope I can get back to them eventually, though.

My two magnet motor ideas are entirely mechanical in nature, btw, and the electrical generator idea would have electromagnetic components and be controlled with electronic circuitry.

I'd probably have a rough time trying to collaborate with anyone in my current situation, so I will just have to wish you luck with your own ideas for now. A working permanent magnet powered device would certainly open up some new areas of exploration in science. I've enjoyed speculating about the possibilities, but for now that speculation depends upon too many ifs.

My priority at the moment is to put the finishing touches on the test device I've been working on most recently which should hopefully tell me whether or not there is anything to my gravity powered motor ideas.

Dwayne

[John doe]

If my idea does not pan out I will eat all the crow that this website can serve!

[MrVibrating]

@Dwayne

Hate to quibble old bean but magnetic fields are not a property of magnets.

Remember Faraday's paradox:

A permanent magnet is sandwiched between copper discs; all three are equal dimensions, and rotate on the same shaft . An ammeter connects the copper discs. We observe three conditions:

- The copper discs rotate, while the magnet is stationary, resulting in current flow

- Only the magnet rotates; no current flows.

- All three rotate together; current flows.

The "paradox" is due to our expectation that, since motion is relative, the first two conditions should produce current, while the last should not, but is resolved in realising that it is meaningless to describe a uniform field as "moving" - IOW, the field does not "rotate" with the magnet... it is effectively, in a very real sense, entirely static, regardless of how fast the magnet spins (assuming axial polarity).

So we can conclude (must!) that the field is not a property of the magnet, but rather an inter-reaction between moving charges and the vacuum or spacetime itself.

And this menagé á tróis is not unique to magnets - they're just an en-masse aggregate of uniform polarity - degauss a magnet and the field doesn't go anywhere, it just scrambles. And consider the EMF between two charges - could be just a pair of electrons - it would be meaningless (impossible) to even infer the existence of a magnetic field as a property of a lone electron.. the magnetic field can only have context in relation to interactions between charges, via spacetime / the vacuum. In short, magnetism is no more a property of charges than it is of magnets - and likewise, for its relationship to the vacuum.

The magnetism is not "in" the charges. It doesn't emanate or radiate from them, isn't emmited or absorbed by them, because it's an exclusively relative phenomenon.

And it only does work (moving charges, free or bound) when there is a change in the field in space and/or time. So any working magnetic OU device must be applying that change - either by mechanical motion (spatial delta), or induction (time delta). There is no "energy" to be extracted from a static field, whatever its provenance.

Any working OU device has an input F*d integral, and an output one. If d is constant (cyclic) then F must be passively time variant (cos "active" would be a zero sum game). That's really all there is to it.

NB "passive" doesn't necessarily mean entirely natural or automatic (though it would include that) - ie. a "passive" field variation could still involve intricate control mechanisms, provided their cost of operation is thermodynamically decoupled from the work performed by the resulting field change.

An example of an active asymmetric magnetic system would be an ordinary electric motor, AC or DC. A magnetic PMM would simply be a passive version of essentially the same thing.

Finally, it's interweb lore that some magnetic PMM's may seem to work before eventually degaussing, but complete BS. The energy stored in the magnet is its polarisation density and coercivity (how strongly "pinned" the domains are against rotation). It's not much, but that's entirely beside the point - in order to convert it to mechanical work would presuppse the existence of an asymmetric interaction! IOW it would depend on the very thing it's supposed to explain away. In reality, there is no mechanism - no means at all - to convert B (the term describing a magnet's field) into mechanical work. Perhaps the only exception would be exploding the magnet, but then it no longer exists and would just make for a big, innefficient mess.. IOW if a magnet was degaussing in an asymmetric interaction, it'd be incidental and not causal, and easily remedied.



PS. small Yldiz update:

http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@es ... 08030.html

(i still suspect that the inertia he's up against is due to the replicability and theory side - he came up with an idea that worked for reasons other than anticipated, and has thus since only incrementally varied the design with limited success in extending the results beyond a narrow range of parameters.. he can't generalise it, yet. Hopefully he'll get there.)

[John doe]

That is incredibly profound and beyond my meeger education level, but It occurred to me that magnetism could be a one or two dimensional gravitational field if that makes any sense???
If that is true the. What we percieve as 3d is really a warping of 2d space? Ouch my head hurts!

[Fcdriver]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AAvWD23nHBU, changing the Harmonic motion, of the dropping motion has been made easy!

[John doe]

Interesting.
I'm sure there is a connection to PMM right now I'm struggling to make it but I will, I do not expect you to tell me lol.
Ah I see a couple applications but doesn't really help me.