Build Updaye 1.0

[james.lindgard]

There is probably a simple explanation for Bessler's scissors and his 60 rpm wheel. And I have sent a link to this thread to A.C. I am not if she would like to see an A.C. Bessler type wheel built or not. If she isn't, then after my current build, I'll find something else to do with my time. Check my faccebook page. I posted how our atmosphere works and an experiment that will prove it. Basically, climate change scientists got climate change wrong. it's hydrothermal vents and not co2 causing it.
As for Bessler, the 2 pictures show force as expected acting on a lever. And if someone wants to open a bellow 2 times more than the work it takes, scissors will allow for it provided one condition is met, it's F + mv2/r where as an example, if both m and v are 1, then 1/0.5 = 2.
Of course, if a wheel has the diameter to allow for a rim speed of 2 m/s, then m2^2/r = m4/r. And then this force could move an object further than W = MD would lead one to believe.
The link is to my facebook page if anyone is interested in how our atmosphere works. https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100010391143926

p.s., I do expect my current build to work because of the years of work and thousands of dollars that I have invested in it. Without using something like inertia and scissors to amplify the work being done by a weight, it is possible it will not have sufficient over balance to work.

edited to correct grammar

[james.lindgard]

I am assembling the arms. the water pipe that connects the bellows will be made out of wood. With this build, a lot of the detail work is in the number of parts it requires. What will be a little tricky is that the levers will not be able to be disassembled. Why this matters is that the water pipe passes through the levers. Basically, once it's together, it will stay that way. It might be the end of the week when I can post a picture of it more fully assembled. With glue, it takes about 1 hour of drying time at every step.

[james.lindgard]

The scissors diagram shows a way that scissors have not been tried. If force is exerted at "A", then the point at the top of the scissors will lift 3 times higher than A.
What has been over looked with scissors is if the force at "A" were to push points E and F towards points C and D, then how much force would be needed ? This I don't think is known and if it allowed for motion to be amplified, then instead of a lever's weight dropping 7 1/2 inches, it would do the same work dropping only 2 1/2 inches. Of course, inertia would allow for the same effect.
The 2nd picture shows about what it will look like on a stand. Almost looks like a windmill but it's not. The stand and the rim will wait until next month as I do have enough to keep me busy for the time being and those should be easy enough to do.

[Tarsier79]

I like the new Jim, and the new focus on Besslers wheel. Greenie from me.

[james.lindgard]

Thanks Tarsier. It is a lot of work and going from what I know to what Bessler knew has not been easy.

@All,
Some pictures of some detail work and the tools I used. In a day or two I might post a picture of the 2 sides (sets of spokes) on an axle.stand and my previous build. This build will have room for mounting more assemblies.
With scissors, there is a way they might give a small advantage. With the pictures i posted the other stating that the force is what someone would expect suggests how they allow for a little extra work.
I think it might have to be demonstrated for anyone to understand it unless someone has a fish scale, a lever and a weight, then they could see it for themselves. If i am right about this, then my 4 ounces (100 grams, approx.) of over balance could become 6 ounces/150 grams. And if that happens, then the current build should work rather easily even if it doesn't rotate very quickly.

[james.lindgard]

I think this is a Eureka moment. That's because I changed what I was building so I could incorporate scissors into the design. And now I know that scissors were used with inertia.
The diagram and picture of Mt 20 are what will help my build to work. I am rather excited about it. I will give you a hint, if I were not using bellows, then I doubt it would work. :-)

Bessler's quote about Mt 20;
"No. 20: Here the previous levers work somewhat more peculiarly and raise up special weights and turn outward to the over balance. For this reason side A is always heavier, my friend supposed but I denied. I then reminded him to harness the horse in front."
- Johann Bessler


p.s., this means I will need to do some design/engineering work but it will be worth it.

[james.lindgard]

The 2 pictures are of previous builds. I found an old video of my Mt 127 build which was complete except for the levers. The video was showing how placing weights on the build to account for water in the bellows, the weights which would be used on the levers and then a weight for the over balance. This and doing the same tests with my Mt 125 build helps me to understand how much over balance can be realized and at the same time how much over balance is needed for a wheel to rotate.
It's been research and development like that which has gotten me to where I am today. There were 2 reasons why I did not finish that build. One is that the water proof material that I used was too stiff. I also realized that if the surface area of the bellow needed the same psi on it's surface as the pressure head would exert on it, it would take a lot of force.
The 2nd image is my previous build. With the design changes I will be making, I will use levers similar to those in my Mt 125 build. This will allow them to be taken apart if I need to work on the bellows or any other mechanics of the wheel. This means that the slats I've been making for the scissors can now be used for a different type of scissor or lever.
If the mathematical principle I have realized is correct, then it could be the answer to a Bessler quote where he asks us to imagine what several such levers could do. An example is that it would allow for Mt 127 to work as well. And as far as perpetual motion goes, I think it will be bigger than inertia for one simple reason, with inertia, a large diameter wheel is needed to develop velocity.
With this trick, it probably could be sued to get even more work out of inertia. I think in layman's terms, it is what would be known as a "Game Changer". At the moment, I am getting over my awe of what Bessler may have known. Once i can comprehend it, then i can start doing design work.
Fortunately for me, this should make everything easier so taking a day or 2 to come to terms with it is okay.

[james.lindgard]

For the new configuration, ideally I would need 5 lbs. of lead. Since it is a leveraging trick, I should be able to use 4 - 1 lb. weights. And with lead, 2.44 in.^3 = 1 lb. And with my old weight wheels, I'll need to get the lead out of them, melt it down and pour it into some molds I'll need to make.
If I am right about this, it will take some people time to "wrap" their minds around it. And it is something that in the future, someone might try different ways of using levers and leverage. This would be to simplify and minimize the mechanics/process.

edited to add; Has anyone in here done the math when considering leverage ?If so, it might be a simple enough concept for someone to understand. It does require sticking with the math though. It might also take some understanding of the force necessary to open bellows.
Myself, I am going from a math perspective only at the moment, kind of why I'm going to try it with my current build. If someone thinks they might understand it, I could post a diagram. It could be what Bessler used to open his scissors with if he didn't use inertia. And yes, it might take a day or 2 considering the math and then going back saying it can't work but the math says it can. I've done that more than a few times myself.

These are the numbers for torque using the "system". Without it, the top number would be the net over balance. With it, there is about a .5 in. lb. of increased torque.

4 oz. @ 15 in. 3 3.4

2.5 lbs. @ 1 1/4 in. 1 5/8 in. lbs. torque

12 oz. @ 15 in. 11.25 in. lbs. of torque

the top 2 subtracted from the bottom would give net torque. And as I mentioned, without it, the top value would be the net force.
And yep, I do have a problem believing it which is why I'm not doing anything at the moment.
The 12 ounces at 15 inches is the CoG for the water in the bellow.

[ME]

Has anyone in here done the math when considering leverage ?If so, it might be a simple enough concept for someone to understand. It does require sticking with the math though. It might also take some understanding of the force necessary to open bellows.

Almost any kind of mechanism uses some kind of leverage.
As its base principle is easy, its application is not and nevertheless can become very complex relatively fast.
So I guess the beneficial 'trick' lies in its application and not leverage alone.

If someone thinks they might understand it, I could post a diagram.

So when no one does, then no one (else) will; but if a single one does, we all get a peek... interesting...

So let me be the one who say he thinks he might understand. :-)
(probably not, as I already made that mistake in some parallel thread)

As said, the application-arena of leverage is huge. So attached is a situation which is one step beyond basic leverage and shows a scissor-situation having some interesting properties.

When it's able to scissor horizontally both masses balance each other, even though the weights operate at a different radius: 2*r*cos(a)=R*cos(a), when 'R' is two times 'r', and equal masses.
If this system is allowed to rotate then -without additional stuff- this system collapses because lowering the right-top weight is the only way to loose gravitational potential: The left-weights then travels to a larger radius causing the system to rotate anti-clockwise and becomes a folding pendulum.
At least I think this is interesting.

(by the way: don't mind the light-gray scissor - it's an old image. It first collapses and Then it rotates)

[james.lindgard]

ME,
That is a starting point. The diagram you posted isn't far off.

[ME]

A perhaps interesting side-note:
While the right-top (vertical) weight is basically the one responsible for the collapse, it is the left weight (horizontal) dictating the rotation because it occupies that larger radius after collapse.
MT41: The horizontal application is always better.

[james.lindgard]

ME,
I hope you don't mind if we go a little slow on this. I have posted a link to my facebook page to this thread. And if we go slow, then if you have questions or things like Mt 41 that you consider, then we can take time for those. And this will give everyone else a chance to consider what we are discussing as they might also have questions of their own.
I made a basic paint drawing of a 2 bellow wheel and inserted your scissors into. I moved one weight. And in this layout, the weight being lifted will need to be lifted twice as high as the weight that is dropping.
This is what will be allowed to happen :-) And remember, I will be using normal long levers as well. But for what is shown, there is a way for a weight dropping 2 1/2 cm's to do as much work as a weight being lifted 5 cm's. :-)

As for Mt 41, it is unique. It seems that as the wheel rotates that the scissors shift the weights. With the lever configuration we are discussing, if added to any wheel, then that wheel might work. This means it might work for solid weights as well but since I am working with bellows, I will focus on how it makes that work more efficient.

edited to rewrite the post.

[ME]

* I hope you don't mind if we go a little slow on this.
No problem.
Those scissor-things look easy, but can be very annoying and confusing sometimes.
Especially the reason for rotation I find non-intuitive.
For the one I posted - According to mass position, it should balance even though being unstable; according to the tiny excess weight of levers one could infer a clockwise rotation; according to all forces combined it will rotate anti...

*This means it might work for solid weights as well but since I am working with bellows, I will focus on how it makes that work more efficient.
I would suggest: Start with confirmation of the principle (true positive) even when the implementation is less efficient before trying to make it more efficient and risk possible failure (false negative).

[james.lindgard]

I might just build the scissors in your style with the weight positioned where I put it. I think it will work just fine. Of course, I have probably spent more time on this than other people so I have a head start.
What needs to be remembered is if a 250 gram weight drops 2 1/2 cm's, it can not possibly have the same force as a 250 gram weight being lifted 5 cm's. It can :-)
With the weight being lifted 5 cm's, it is not actually a weight, it is force. And since it is force, a pulley system can transfer that force to another lever where it will do work. With the style of scissors that you posted, the scissors would pivot where you showed. The difference is that the rod you show would be moved. This is because it would connect to the primary lever.
This is where things might get a little confusing, linking scissors to a lever as shown.

edited to update image

[james.lindgard]

I updated the picture again to show things as they should be shown. The long lever is attached to the lower part of the scissor. Where the large scissors have the most spread, it is force at those 2 points and weight. I will explain this later. It is this configuration that will allow another set of scissors to be mounted on the left side of the wheel. It will be these other scissors that will generate free energy.
Also, where the bellows are 90° to the long levers, they will be offset. This offset will increase the amount of torque that they generate. As time goes by, I will explain some more of the math.
With the scissors on the left, when the weight falls to 90° to the axle, it is in balance. This means that any work it performs is done while it is moving into a position of balance. If you notice the weight on the right, it is out of balance. This will require work to be performed as a result. Together, 1/2 of the work they do is free energy. This is why Bessler would mention 90° to the axle. It has to do with balance/imbalance.