Gravity assisted Normal Energy

[KAS]

Whenever a member of this forum gets excited about a new over unity concept, it's quite easy to get carried away and temporarily suffer from energy source blindness. ( I include myself in the past).
This is where one forgets to calculate where this mysterious energy is coming from.
I am of the mind that Bessler's himself discovered the solution without being able to (or being specialised enough) to explain the energy source.
I am sure that his discovery complied with all known physical and conservation of energy laws.

There is one possible energy source that I have not been able to find any reference to. That of Gravity assisted Normal force.

This is sometimes wrongly referred to gravitation reaction force. It can't really be classed as reaction force as it can be directed at angles to the direction of gravity, for instance; a mass rolling down a ramp produces a normal and frictional force perpendicular to the ramp and not gravity.
This ( I believe) is the law complying energy source that Bessler's used and has so far eluded us.
E.g. If you suspend a weight from a hook by an elastic. The mass pulls on the hook and stretches the elastic by the value of the mass. Likewise the hook (or whatever it is attached to) has to exert a force of the same value to prevent the weight from falling. This is Normal Force (Nf). In theory, it is possible to extract this energy without the weight losing height. This is done by placing a shelf just below the weight (almost touching) and then cutting the elastic just above the weight. The energy released when the elastic flings up is gravity assisted Normal potential energy.
Likewise, if the elastic is cut near the hook, the elastic flings downward. This is gravitaty assisted potential energy. Both is released without the weight losing height which complies with conservation of energy laws.
This IMV is the mysterious energy source we've al been searching for.

Discuss-

[pequaide]

The mass moved when it stretched the cord or compressed the spring.

[ME]

That mysterious energy source is the sun which is (via some complex system, like eating) powering some muscle and brain to enable the reattachment of a new elastic band.
You can forget about that weight and just connect the hook with the shelf.

[KAS]

I understand where you're coming from. Perhaps I've used a bad example.

Take a 1kg pendulum weight pulling on a pivot. Gravity pulls on the pivot to the tune of 1kg and the pivot pulls on the the weight by the same value.
Now, imagine a scenario where the strut or arm between the weight and the pivot was able to utilise its part of this energy by retracting toward the suspended weight without it losing height. This is theoretically possible.
Is this not energy that can be utilised without loss of mass height?
Don't forget, the pivot is also attracted to the weight.
If this pivot is attached to a wheel, imaging the use of such energy?

It's a energy source that that can easily be restored as the weight responsible maintains its height and therefor, it's Gpe.
This energy source is generated by Newton's universal law of gravitation where the earth's mass is attracted to the suspended pendulum mass. Both of which moves toward one and other ( albeit unmeasurable given the difference in mass) but nevertheless true.

[ME]

(I't beyond me where I come from... but I guess that's off-topic)

Now, imagine a scenario where the strut or arm between the weight and the pivot was able to utilise its part of this energy by retracting toward the suspended weight without it losing height. This is theoretically possible.

Sorry, I have a bad imagination today...
But I like to brainstorm about such a thing, so I simply try to eliminate those things which could not be it until that logic fails and hopefully found something new in the process (so my reply is not to belittle your theory)

If some part is going towards the weight (and away from the actual pivot) it will loose GPE. Somehow it needs to climb back to its previous position.
When the weight is oblivious of any action, it will be a separate mechanism and any action it does is in need for some restore-action.
If you try to extract string-tension (centripetal force) it is the weight which will loose height, and not easy to restore. And even when restored that weight (when swinging) would not swing as high as before and loosing height the other way.

Maybe I can imagine a spring coiled around that string which could oscillate up-and-down, but I don't see how to extract a continues stream of energy or how it auto-oscillated in the first place.

[KAS]

I am trying to portray an example where a system can be incorporated whereby the pivot itself moves toward the suspended weight without loss of mass height. In this example, I've used a ramp.
You will note that the tensile link between the pivot and the weight utilises the combined energy whilst preserving the height of the weight responsible.
Now, just need to create a device to a acieve this.

[Trevor Lyn Whatford]

Hi Kas,

looking at your drawing, say you was to use a spoil roller on the ramp, the exact size to wind the weight cord up to keep the weight at the same high as it rolls down the ramp. This would seem to be the answer but it is not, because the weight pulling down on the cord is trying to roll the spoil up the incline at the same time as you want it to roll down the incline, thus it should be a jam!

Just my thoughts on what you are trying to do.

[KAS]

Been toying with that Trevor but it was a no go.
The object of this thread is for valuable input from members like yourself and others on the feasability of this energy source and not so much about the examples I posted. I am open for ridicule as well so long as it's constructive.
I know that there is energy here for the taking but just need to figure out a way to extract it.
The ramp example above may not be the answer although, if such an elastic movable pivot is achievable, it can be flipped after the moment (maybe the return side of the wheel) and reset itself using compression force - still keeping the weight level.
I think Bessler's may have accidentally stumbled on it without realising the source of his mysterious energy, hence the witness statements noting weights knocking against the wheel rim at the start of the decent. That doesn't sound like falling weights to me.

You see, the mass has to move horizontally. That's the payback for not losing height. The Nf (being perpendicular with the ramp) naturally propels it that way. I'm guessing with quite a force too depending on the length of the incline.
Maybe even be 9.8 Mtrs per sec ^2 ( minus extracted useful friction energy)

[ME]

The weight hangs on a retractable extension cord basically for the main purpose of being a plumb bob.

What I think will happen:
The tension on the cord equals the weight of that hanging mass and is in equilibrium.
Then it slides down the ramp because of gravity.
That mass hits the ground, removes its force on the cord and the cord retracts (or some similar mechanism).
When the mass is suspended at the start it will hit the ground and will give some slack to the cord.
At first the cord is able to retract at high speed and able to lift the weight a tiny bit of the ground. This system will hop to its new position at decreasing steps until it just touches the ground and cord tension remains in equilibrium.

To restart such action new potential has to be inserted to get pivot and mass to their starting position (GPE) and the cord is extended again (spring-potential: as it should balance whatever its length)
Only loss of energy.

(what's a 'spoil roller'?)

[ME]

The object of this thread is for valuable input from members like yourself and others on the feasability of this energy source and not so much about the examples I posted.

Something I think about:

When all the mechanisms complete a single rotation (perhaps not in pace with the wheel), and their orientations and weight distributions are equal to the rotation before,
then physics says: "No work done here !".
Seems just fine by me, when rotation does not require any work.... but yet it "works".

This leads to the question:
What kind of mechanism does not like to stand still;
is able to borrow some potential energy;
makes the wheel gain in kinetic energy;
where the wheel return potential energy to that same mechanism;
... as if nothing happened.

(but what really happened there?)

[KAS]

You're right ME. System that reverts to its original position at the end of the cycle has no useful energy left. All you would achieve is a weight that moves horizontally and then back. Yet, imagine if you could apply it to MT 21 for instance; say at 1 o'clock and 7 o' clock.
Now you can see its potential.

[KAS]

(what's a 'spoil roller'?)

A spoil roller is a cord that is tied off somewhere then flips over a wheeled pivot and attaches to the weight.

[MrVibrating]

I spent some time investigating whether it was possible to perform work by dropping the point of application of a weight, rather than the weight itself. For instance, a weight hangs off a rope, suspended over a pully wheel; so, could i drop the pulley instead, while keeping the weight level? I went through a variety of attempted implementations, in the end concluding that it wasn't possible, and that the weight itself - the actual mass posessing the weight - had to get lower in order for work to be done.

As ever, i can't say i left no stone unturned, and it remains an attractive proposition.. i just couldn't get it to pan out tho..

[Paul T]

Hi all, the energy source is gravitational potential. It is the same energy source that allows a piece of snow to fall down a mountain and grow into a big enough mass to knock down a small village.

Besslers wheel converts gravitational potential into movement and its mechanism is a series of mechanical one way valves to convert it into torque via mechanical advantage of one of the oldest inventions, the lever.

Most engines in existence use leverage.

[KAS]

Paul, if the energy source is Gpe, the weight(s) would lose height.
One thing I have learned over many years of perpetua study is this:-

The minute a weight or weights on a wheel lose height, even by the slightest amount, the wheel will not turn perpetually as the combined mass preservation would be compromised and a reset would become impossible.
This concept messes with ones head but try to visualise an energy supply instigated by the gravity attracted mass but not the mass itself.

I assure you that this "Normal Force" is evident and accessible.

it's the only energy source I have ever been able to identify. It seems to hide from common perception as it is naturally assumed impossible to extract without loss of relative mass height.

Trust me when I say, if any of your designs include a mechanism where its mass loses height, you,re on to a loser.
Conservation of energy laws will always prevent reset. The answer IMV, Think perpendicular to Gf.