What does 'something that works' mean?

[John Collins]

PLMKRN - No pessimism or negativity intended, just a reality check. In fact I do have a design which I believe will work, but of course I don't have a working wheel, and I can't do anything about it until I have got my workshop up and running again, having just moved house.

I am absolutely certain that there was no scam by Bessler and the translation is correct. I wrote at the beginning of all the translations that translating is an art and depends what you want from it. I originally simply wanted to know what Bessler was writing about. I never thought that every line would be examined under the microscope to try to get hidden meanings or mistakes found and alternative versions revealed.

Generally speaking I am happy with the result and from the emails I've received over the last few years it seems as though the majority of readers are equally satisfied.

BTW my blog will be returning in a few days.

JC

[eccentrically1]

From: Jim Randall
To: Bill McMurtry
Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2013 11:12 AM
Subject: From Jim_Mich

Hi Bill,
It seems Ralph was right, I said too much on the Bessler Wheel forum. And you guessed a big portion of my wheel idea. I'm not prepared to talk details about it just yet. But could you do me a very big favor? Could you edit or remove the next to last paragraph of your post #108554 where you describe your concept of my wheel, so that I don't have any problems with the new 'First to File' patent system here in the USA? In return I promise you will be at the top of my shipping list for the small 'proof of principle' model wheels I'm working on.
Thanks,
Jim Randall
aka Jim_MIch

A favor was asked.

From: Bill McMurtry
Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 8:29 PM
To: Jim Randall
Subject: Re: From Jim_Mich

Hi Jim,

Agreed. It is removed.

May I ask what your current schedule is?

The favor was agreed to.
Bill remove text from his forum post.
I added Bill's name to the top my shipping list.
That was the agreement. Nothing more.

Bill broke the agreement, not me
Then Bill turned into an ugly lying harpy troll.

I disagree, your wording of the agreement led Bill to believe you were building wheels (plural), step (F) of the "plan". When he realized he'd been misled is when the excuses began, and since you weren't building wheels and holding up your end of the agreement, he re-posted his post, rightfully so. That's how I see it here in evil harpy troll bully bug world.

[cloud camper]

Sadly, no one will be receiving any demonstration models as our "inventor" has used the incomplete, dumbed down, high school definition of centrifugal force rather than the proper physics definition in his program resulting in garbage results.

This is simply lazy, sloppy research that any scientist or engineer would be immediately terminated for.

Our "inventor" will stick his fingers in his ears and scream "No, no, no!" but has used the wrong definition.

[ovyyus]

A favor was asked...
That was the agreement. Nothing more.

That's a very misleading characterisation. The exchange of goods (a wheel) for service (a favour) is called a 'trade'. JM should know that. Trading under false pretence is when the goods or the service are misrepresented, such as when JM falsely claimed to be making small demonstration models in order to leverage a deal with me.

[Furcurequs]

In return I promise you will be at the top of my shipping list for the small 'proof of principle' model wheels I'm working on.

"in return" ...for the "favor" that was asked... ...so an exchange.

"I'm working on." ...is in the present tense.

[ME]

I don't get it... really....The whole issue.

Perhaps it's me, not seeing to whole picture, perhaps I'm a bit naive?... (<-- I'll leave this here as a shortcut answer)

Yes it's sad, frustrating, full of mutual hard headedness... etc

Especially for something where the chances are slim to be actually true: it requires a magnificent violation of skepticism for even believing the possibility.

I would think (after a small burst of frustration) the "victim" would conclude something like: Yeah, nice try buddy! and repost that "sensitive"-post anyway (which became a useless form of leverage however you look at it)...
An actual working model would be a disproportionately HUGE reward for guessing someone's idea.

I expect no sensible response, so here's some other situation:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Let's say person Aa has found a method to predict the correct Lotto-numbers with Millions $$$ to win, he tells something about it.
Person Bb suspects a partial method, and Aa makes a convincing effort to keep it quite because otherwise it doesn't work.
In exchange Aa promises to buy a ticket with the right numbers, Bb will get on top of the list.
Bb is silent, waits, gets nothing.
Bb suspects Aa has nothing.
Aa complains about 'circumstances'.
Bb gets mad and and 'exposes' the whole thing.
Person Aa continues enhancing his method, but Bb is no longer on the list; why would he be?

I guess this somewhat covers it....
What's the problem? Besides being disappointing.

Bb didn't buy a ticket for himself (while he still could, even with and without the partial method)
Bb didn't pay or was expected to pay the ticket beforehand.
Bb was lucky to get involved -as there was nothing to lose and a lot to gain (for precisely NULL effort), but could have suspected Aa didn't have a good method, or any method at all - as a good Lotto is pure random.
Now Bb has to guess his own numbers again, but still blames Aa for some reason.
Person Aa can still have a method, a partial method, a bad method, or none at all.... But that's not a problem for Aa as he thinks he has.
It's not even a problem for a possible next person Cc, as long as no investment is required.
Yes, perhaps Cc will also suffer some disappointment: he'll survive.
As long as Cc avoids Dd and Ee who demand $$$ to even participate and who are not even hinting to their Lotto-methods...(etc)

[preoccupied]

Jim_Mich probably was not thinking about how he said that. Why are you so aggressively trying to see more to what he is saying than what was wrote? Jim_Mich was not a spastic nervous wreck that is afraid of making mistakes with you guys at the time he wrote that email so he didn't elaborate on possible interpretations of his statements to defend himself from your paranoia. Don't you think you're being a little paranoid?

eccentrically1 wrote

I disagree, your wording of the agreement led Bill to believe you were building wheels (plural), step (F) of the "plan". When he realized he'd been misled is when the excuses began, and since you weren't building wheels and holding up your end of the agreement, he re-posted his post, rightfully so. That's how I see it here in evil harpy troll bully bug world.

[jim_mich]

The problem is that the great and powerful ovyyus keeps posting defamatory lies.

Trading under false pretence is when the goods or the service are misrepresented, such as when JM falsely claimed to be making small demonstration models in order to leverage a deal with me.

And Pinocchio Bill lies again. I've made no false claims.

My exacted words were "model wheels I'm working on." At that point I had designed a 12 inch fluid wheel, to be vacuum formed from sheet plastic. I had sculpted an initial mold shape from soft clay. I had tracked down a source of plastic sheet. I had acquired a vacuum, to be place in line with my shop-vac, which was expected to produce enough suction. I had drawn up plans for the vacuum box and for the frame to hold the plastic sheet. Thus, I was indeed working toward making POP wheels. Pinocchio Bill lies when he says differently. Pinocchio Bill was not present in my workshop at that time. Pinocchio Bill is ignorant of the facts.

I became concerned about possible damage to my nice vinyl flooring in front of my kitchen oven. And I was concerned about the 12 diameter being too small. (The plastic sheets were 16 inches, the holding frames were to be 18 inches and my oven width is 21 inches.

After I broke my left arm, I made a decision to make a wheel from PVC piping, since I could do such using just my right arm.

So when Bill write, "JM falsely claimed to be making small demonstration models", it is an out and out lie. I was working on making the tooling for small vacuum formed 12 inch wheels. But plans changed.

So Bill's statement is an out and out Pinocchio lie, which seems to be common for trolls.

Everyone from time to time makes a misstatement. But only trolls like Bill keep up a steady flow of Pinocchio lies.

The problem here is that the great ovyyus sees himself as being always right. He can't stand the fact that he failed to understand plain American English. And so keeps up a steady flow of lies.

Sorry, Pinocchio Bill, but your defaming statement is a lie.

[Mark]

Jim,

What was the time interval between the point that you and Bill made the agreement, and the point that you decided that you weren't going to make the models that you mentioned in the email?

[preoccupied]

I think Mark is asking when you broke your arm Jim_Mich. That sounds like it hurt. I know an old lady that fell and she broke her arm just by falling. If you fell you could have died! It sounds so dangerous.

[jim_mich]

Jim,

What was the time interval between the point that you and Bill made the agreement, and the point that you decided that you weren't going to make the models that you mentioned in the email?

It was after I broke my arm, probably end of summer, probably four months.

[Fletcher]

I don't get it... really....The whole issue.

Yes it's sad, frustrating, full of mutual hard headedness... etc

Especially for something where the chances are slim to be actually true: it requires a magnificent violation of skepticism for even believing the possibility.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Let's say person Aa has found a method to predict the correct Lotto-numbers with Millions $$$ to win, he tells something about it.

You are definitely not naive ME ..

First, there is a method to predict the correct Lotto numbers - I'll share it with you if you don't tell anyone.

Make a matrix and a computer program that gives you every conceivable combination of numbers - form a syndicate (if you can't afford it yourself) and buy lotto tickets with every one of those combinations - you are guaranteed to hold one winning ticket - all you have to do is worry about whether someone else holds a winning ticket also and having to share the top prize (you'll collect on all prizes btw) - it might not be that cost effective unless the big prizes haven't been struck for a while and the pots been building - enjoy your winnings, perhaps with your syndicate members.

............................................

The whole issue, as I see it, is all the things you mention, and the remedies.

But the underlying factors here are that jim_mich came up with a concept 10 years ago. He already was a long time member here then who contributed freely and often and was helpful in building the understanding of the dynamics of this 'quest of fools'.

Friendships were made, albeit ones where you probably would never meet face to face. And with friendships and alliances comes trust of sorts. Etiquette requires that we not take advantage of our friends vulnerabilities, that may be unwittingly exposed and could cause him damage.

Trust between the two was broken, and so friendship was lost. Remedies were enacted by one party, to balance the ledger, but still trust is a sticky point for both.

[ME]

Fletcher, YOU ARE THE MAN !!

If you'll do that for me and put me on top of the (winning) list and send me the winning ticket, then I'll promise I'll tell nobody.

Etiquette requires that we not take advantage of our friends vulnerabilities, that may be unwittingly exposed and could cause him damage

[edited and deleted my text: -let me rethink-]

...Ten years....

[eccentrically1]

It's pretty obvious jim's something isn't going to work. Plans change. The quest of fools is safe, even from preoccupied's paranoia. No models will ever be built to be delivered, by jim or his boys. We've all seen the post, so no harm no foul. This whole issue should be forgotten.

[cloud camper]

Yup, while I agree Jim promised Bill a wheel, it's never gonna happen.

Use of a wrong definition to create Jim's computer program is a guaranteed deal breaker.

Game over.