Jim Mich...

[Fletcher]

And what better way to encrypt something in text in one language that then requires you know the destination language to decipher into, than to, form a mathematical picture of geometry and parts that is universal ?

That's why I think it is a distinct possibility !

[preoccupied]

I'm at that point again where I wish Scott would let me delete all of my posts. I don't say the right things in my opinion.

[WaltzCee]

Can anyone think of any other option than the two well known ones above ? Perhaps you'd like to add to the list ?

• 1. the unbalanced wheel that cannot find its equilibrium point (he says that)
  • The only way an unbalanced wheel could work is as MT13 is annotated:or someone were available who always lifted up the weights above at D like lightning. Energy has to be added to the system.

• 2. the mass balanced wheel where masses move in and out or forward and back which doesn't have a PQ position because it never loses or gains GPE.
  • If a wheel were driven by pumping weights in and out, I think the energy required to do the pumping would be greater than any work the wheel could return.

• 3. Create energy
  • This is where I'm looking. I don't think the key is a mechanism. It's a simple machine, like ramp or wheel or lever. It's a simple machine we've never seen before. This is just my 2 cents and the Scotsman in me is expecting a dimes worth of change. :)

[Stewart]

Hi Fletcher

Thank you for taking the time to give such a thoughtful and in depth reply.

I had no doubt you wouldn't blindly believe claims before being privy to the details, and I know your analysis of any disclosure would be thorough, logical and honest. I did wonder whether you had seen more details on proposed codes than I'd been aware of from this forum, and it seems there has been more of a discussion on JC's blog, which I don't follow (I can barely keep up to date with this forum).

I don't doubt JC or Oystein's sincerity, but that is no guarantee of their ability or that they have actually discovered anything. I don't really know much about Oystein, but I'm obviously familiar with JC's work over the years. As Grimer points out, JC has "cried wolf" on a number of occasions in the past and I'm sure he wouldn't blame anyone for not believing any more of his claims until he can provide proof. However, I love JC's unfaltering optimism and persistence, and I wouldn't want that to change.

I also believe it to be likely that there is coded information in at least one of Bessler's works. In fact we know for sure there are codes in AP, as we've discussed several of the irrefutable ones on this forum over the years, and it seems plausible there could be deeper levels of encoding.

We shall just have to wait and see what JC and Oystein eventually offer up for analysis before we can pass any real judgement.

You'll no doubt get your chance. What he says is that he hasn't shared the entire road map and how those connections are made, and confirmed. So like sitting next to the motorway we are only seeing the traffic flow at that juncture and point in time and not the whole motorway traffic flow.

You might have seen some traffic flow, but from where I'm sitting I just see car crash after car crash. For example, the failure to recognise when a fleur-de-lis is upside down and that the accompanying initials are CL and not Cr. Or claiming that in DT there is a special "o", "placed there to confirm the existence and appearance of the Orffyrean Code." when there is no such thing visible on any of the copies of DT I've held in my hands or seen good quality scans of! I'm afraid this sort of thing leaves me with no confidence that anything else he has to offer is of any better standard, as I think you can appreciate.

As I said they at least appear to be ploughing green fields, new directions in the search for Bessler's answer. I applaud that because to me it seems a logical way for JB to hide in plain sight his wheel workings to be discovered later.

You're right, we should encourage people to delve into all areas of research that could be useful in this quest, and I certainly don't want to discourage any research. We should also offer some cautionary words of advice, that when left to one's own devices it's very easy to get carried way and to make tenuous links. It does help to work with others in the same field to keep each other in check. I'm sure we've all been down that path at one point or another. I know I indulged myself at one point and found myself getting a bit carried away with my Clover-leaf idea. In fact my very first posts on this forum all those years ago were to suggest whether the AP wheel was a decoder wheel for MT. I learnt from the Clover-leaf episode to be more strict and honest with myself as to the likelihood of codes and links. Occam's razor really is a prized tool.

I think part of the problem with looking for codes and analysing symbols is to be able to recognise what is normal and what is unusual. With 300 year old documents you only learn that by studying other similar documents from the time period.

Generally I agree with you about premature proclamations etc. And I am also a study of human nature so am somewhat cynical in my beliefs.

I guess in this field we should be used to it by now. I'm actually less annoyed with the people who pop up here making claims than with the existing members who fall for it every time and suck up to them instead of showing them the door! As you say though, JC and Oystein aren't making claims of having a working wheel and perhaps I am being too cynical. I certainly hope they do have something that helps solve this mystery.

OK, I'd like to make some analogies with yourself Stewart (no offense intended).

None taken. In fact you're very kind and patient towards me when I know I can come across as arrogant. I do take on board what you are saying with your analogy, but I can't really comment on it until we know just what JC or Oystein's level of knowledge is or what they are capable of when it comes to codes etc.

Believe me, when I rant on about things it has always been because I love this subject and just want to make sure we all have the most accurate information so we can get to the truth of the matter. I have to admit that I sometimes find the tendency of some to play on the "codes" angle like a Dan Brown novel as making more of a mystery out of the story than there really is, distorting the truth and in fact detracting from the legitimacy of events. Most people are still unaware of exactly what Bessler says in plain, unencoded language. Once I've finished and published my AP translation so that you all have an accurate version of Bessler's primary message in your hands, I might then return to a bit of code seeking too, if there's anything left undiscovered!

And what better way to encrypt something in text in one language that then requires you know the destination language to decipher into, than to, form a mathematical picture of geometry and parts that is universal ?

I'm highly sceptical that it's possible to get a detailed mechanism drawn in that way from the narrow pages of AP whilst maintaining coherent passages of poetry. However, I look forward to being shown otherwise.

All the best
Stewart

P.S. Although a bit of thread hi-jacking is a fitting tribute to Jim, perhaps if we're to continue with this discussion we should take it to another topic?

[WaltzCee]

Agreed or not agreed, some things remain questionable

Maybe. One thing indisputable is the fact energy down equals energy up. Perhaps as Jim filtered the many translations of Bessler thinking all of them may be correct in that they get across the same information accurately and grammatically, yet if any disagree with known reality it can't possibly be a correct translation. Ergo, BS. It's everyone's prerogative to interpret what they see and decide if it's of any use to them.

I think Jim would agree yet who knows. I also don't think he'd mind us trashing his memorial thread. I think he'd like the idea.

[Fletcher]

I think it best that JC and Oystein explain themselves at this point, should they feel the need to. I obviously can not answer for them and can only give a generalized overview of how I perceive things to be and relevance.

I think part of the problem with looking for codes and analysing symbols is to be able to recognise what is normal and what is unusual. With 300 year old documents you only learn that by studying other similar documents from the time period.

IIRC Oystein had said that once he found the key to the code he was able to find a similar key and code in other more famous works of around that period. I should think he would have noticed generalized printing and presentation similarities if they were consistent between texts and countries for that period etc and rank or discount their importance if any.

I don't think jim_mich would mind at all this thread lurching off topic but you may be right about a new topic if it continues in this vein.

Thanks for the discussion all the same.

[daxwc]

Fletcher:

And what better way to encrypt something in text in one language that then requires you know the destination language to decipher into, than to, form a mathematical picture of geometry and parts that is universal ?
That's why I think it is a distinct possibility !

One needs to remember Bessler calls himself a mathematician which in that era involved a lot of geometry especially in algebra. I think it is the perfect place to communicate among intellectuals without the need for language. It is not hard to see in my opinion that he encoded something; it is whether his paranoia actually allowed himself to reveal his secret even here. Remember the secret may be in many forms such as and not contained to a confession of fraud, usage of alternative energy other than gravity, mathematic formula or draft drawings of the running wheel. It was not our time and we need to understand that scientists were not as open as today due to religious and government persecution which is why the coding systems existed. There is also very good possibility that Bessler was toying with the intellectuals who knew where to look for the code.

[rasselasss]

I liked Jim Mich..He was knowledgeable,experienced, a self made man, did'nt live on handouts but more so he believed in himself even to the point of derision by others and remained true to what he thought was correct...So mote it be..

[johannesbender]

You might have seen some traffic flow, but from where I'm sitting I just see car crash after car crash. For example, the failure to recognise when a fleur-de-lis is upside down and that the accompanying initials are CL and not Cr.

This is not directly related to me from this doscussion but , i feel the need to place a reminder , the initial thought or impression i formed when i found the watermark was roman numerals CL or LC , then the possibility of R.C or C.R also came up from that brief discussion , and also the possibility of besslers work title.

we can try and make sense of everything as we all do by going with our personal ability to seek logic, but ultimately we just dont know anything for fact ,and this is the sad situation we find ourselfs in hundreds of years later .

makes one wonder how archeology paints such vivid stories .

www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... ght=emblem

JimMich may you find peace in your slumber.

[cloud camper]

The parasitic belief that hijacked his brain would not allow him to deliver the results of his build, forcing him instead to perpetuate yet another pointless self-serving myth. The lesson is there for all to learn.

The perfect epitaph for every PM'ist that ever lived, bar Bessler... & the only eventual one for every PM'ist still alive.....until the lesson is learnt by one, at least.

My 2 cents ... taking JB's one-way wheels as the basic principle in action it appears to me that (assuming he was genuine) we are left with two options.

1. the unbalanced wheel that cannot find its equilibrium point (he says that). The problem being that every known circulating device consisting of internally moving parts in some way always has one PQ point or position of lowest GPE (assuming it is not mass balanced around the axle), which it will find and become stationary at - that is unless there is a permutation out there where the positive torque is greater than the negative torque so allowing the 'wheel' to never rest at the PQ point and keep on driving. That is what JB hints at having discovered or it is a misdirection.

2. the mass balanced wheel where masses move in and out or forward and back which doesn't have a PQ position because it never loses or gains GPE. This was jim_mich's favoured approach, even though current Physics says it is impossible also - aka - the Inertia wheel. Where it does gain credence is with the later two-way wheels which were stationary until given a push start etc.

Personally I think Ovvyus's and Gill's tomes ring true. Personally I think the most promising way forward for 2017 is to discover the basic lever mechanism used by JB - we have so little 'fact' to go on - but both JC and Oystein are confident they have found the secret mechanism enabling the gravity only circulating wheel - we have little choice but to await their findings or rediscover it for ourselves. If both can make convincing cases for their enthusiasm of their mechs then we shall see (eventually) if they are both on the same path (same mech) or not, and then we might explore the two scenario's above with that mech(s) in mind - or, there may be an option 3 which I haven't considered and escapes me as it stands today.

Can anyone think of any other option than the two well known ones above ? Perhaps you'd like to add to the list ?

Certainly not trying to push any agenda as a sure thing but why not use the mechanism that nature uses to amplify an energy input and that is mechanical resonance. This phenomena is everywhere in nature, in the air you breathe(standing waves in the atmosphere), in the water you drink (ocean waves), in the light you use to see with (electromagnetic radiation), even used in our vocal chords to create speech.

While any object in resonance possesses energy levels both above and below the equilibrium position that corresponds with conservation of energy, what if we set a weight into resonance such as vertical oscillation on a rubber band then engineer a mechanism to "trap" the weight at it's highest amplitude, then use that newly created potential GPE to reset the system and drive an external wheel or load?

Now we have an oscillating mechanism that is not a wheel but the output of which can drive a wheel.

WM2D simulations of this mechanism show a gain of approx 4X the input energy and before/after energy calculations have been confirmed by a physics grad student as well as our own evergreen Frank Grimer.

The tricky mechanical aspect being the double resets occurring at different times, one for the falling weight driving the oscillator and another for the oscillator itself. An escapement mechanism is used to trap the excited energy which tightens a spring which is then released at an interval to assist raising the input weight plus driving an external wheel.

No claims to Bessler's mechanism here (or any claims for that matter) but I believe a logical area of research that does not require an entirely new never before observed energy source as the energy is already there (albeit briefly)!

[WaltzCee]

It was not our time and we need to understand that scientists were not as open as today due to religious and government persecution which is why the coding systems existed.

Do you have a source for that? From what I've read scientists would encrypt to keep thieves from stealing their work.

[Wubbly]

Can anyone think of any other option than the two well known ones above ? Perhaps you'd like to add to the list ?

Another option tossed around on this forum is the "Gravity Slingshot" wheel, where motion is taken from the Earth, and transferred into the wheel. It's not continuously out of balance. It steals rotational energy from the Earth, and transfers that into rotational energy of the wheel. No laws of physics are broken. The Earth slows down a little, but no one is going to notice.

[WaltzCee]

• • It steals rotational energy from the Earth, and transfers that into rotational energy of the wheel.

How is this theft going to happen mechanically? It's hard to imagine.

• • The Earth slows down a little, but no one is going to notice.

The sparrow watcher might take note(s).

[Grimer]

...
Can anyone think of any other option than the two well known ones above ? Perhaps you'd like to add to the list ?

Yes, I can think of one, Fletcher.

The Cloud Camper oscillator in the specific form of the Milkovic Pendulum and in the physical implementation of bailywick1's DOMINANT FLYWHEEL.

The castle walls were breached 3 years ago.

[Grimer]

...
The sparrow watcher might take note(s).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZAg7iSefvU