Protoclocks, escapements and closing the loop in PM

[TGM]

Love the idea, but I, too, do not think it will work.

What kind of car is that in the pic???

[Grimer]

I'm confident it will work. :-)

[cloud camper]

Thanks for the comments guys.

Of course the odds are against operation but the simulations show significant excess energy. This is because it uses the one phenomena in physics that allows an excess of operational energy above that determined by the initial conditions. This is the phenomena of mechanical resonance.

I paid a physics grad student go thru the sims and energy calculations and he agreed with my figures. Now he wants to join the project!

It certainly won't work as shown however as the primary and secondary oscillators have not been installed yet.

The escapement is just the return flow energy path to keep the primary oscillator going.

But it feels good to get my hands dirty in the shop and they have been cleaning up nicely!

@TGM The car was built totally from scratch by my machinist buddy. It uses a 2.3 L Ford 4cyl. He is 79 yrs young and has built nine race cars. Now he wants to rip out the 2.3 and put in a 140 hp inline 4 motorcycle engine. He's a total animal!

[spinner361]

I do believe that escapements are needed but for the purpose of timing only. It is not the driver. Clearly.

[spinner361]

You make nice parts. My build stopped because I did not have the quality. You have the quality.

[Grimer]

...
I paid a physics grad student go thru the sims and energy calculations and he agreed with my figures. Now he wants to join the project!
...

I don't blame him. I'm only up to the potential of a 180° swing and I can see that will allow one to construct a Gravimobil (cf. Ventomobil - google it) which using a rack and pinion to get ground reaction will sail up into the Newtonian gravity wind.

From what I understand of your proposals you are way ahead of that in terms of energy generation. I'm not surprised you felt you needed someone to go through the maths.

Presumably you realise that once this gets out you will be contacted by the PTB and "persuaded" to work for some secret establishment or other.

If one can rise up by reacting against a rack then one can rise up by reacting against the air - as aircraft do of course.

Once one gets the hang of things one can use different Ersatz gravities to react against each other. We only have one NG acceleration (32 ft/s) but we can generate a host of different EG accelerations. This means we can drive space ships at speeds only limited by the strength of materials.

[cloud camper]

I appreciate your optimism Frank!

But as we all know the devil lies in the details. There are still some fussy
details to be worked out.

While the sims show as high as 390% gain, frictional losses could cancel the show.

But yeah, the idea is to oscillate energy back and forth between an NG field and an EG as you like to call it and take advantage of each while avoiding the disadvantages.

The idea here is the forces go up by the square of rpm while in motion but
while in the NG state remain linear/constant.

Pulses created while in the EG state are then stored in the clock spring to
make up lost PE thru the escapement and restore the NG state back to original values for a new cycle.

That's why I believe this could be an asymmetric oscillator.

And why it is neither a gravity or motion wheel as it is a hybrid between the two.

Neither gravity by itself or motion by itself can power a wheel.

I believe you must combine the two.

@Spinner: Thanks for your post. It takes a nice machine shop to make
nice parts. I wish I had one. Fortunately I have access to one! Sorry your build got stalled out.

[Grimer]

...
Neither gravity by itself or motion by itself can power a wheel.

I believe you must combine the two.
...

Mmm.....

A week ago I would have agreed with that statement, absolutely, but now I'm not so sure.

The point is we can have lots of different levels of EG - 2G, 6G NG where N relates to the strongest materials we possess.

We can't have appreciably different levels of NG unless we go to another planet and that ain't practical. Now it's true that from a theoretical point of view the strength of gravity at an elevation of 10 ft above the ground is weaker than the strength 5ft above the ground, a point Tarsier overlooked. That won't give us much energy though coz its like the difference between a temp of 260°K and 260.000001°K, a relative difference too small to be of any use.

In the case of EG however we can cover orders of magnitude difference, particularly as we have access to the absolute zero of the EG scale, a stationary state relative to the frame of reference with respect to rotation.
Also, at our human scale we only have significant access to one dimensional gravity whereas we have significant access to EG in all three dimensions.

So its just possible that Jim is right in his enthusiasm although wrong about Bessler's wheel not involving gravity.

If you remember I asked Jim a reductio absurdum question. I asked if Bessler's wheel would work laid on its side and he claimed it would. Clearly, his obsession overrode his common sense.

Funnily enough something similar came up on the Not the [Word removed at the request of Steorn] Forum.
I said the Rubber Band Motor was a gravity motor. Pstru vehemently rejected the idea so I asked him if it would work placed on its side. He claimed it would.
Some time later, after he'd thought about it, he admitted he was wrong. He tried to save face by saying if you did this and if you did that it would work - but that wasn't what I'd asked.

Coming from the Steorn forum as you do I'm sure you'll remember the WhipMag. I believe that must involve an interaction between magnetism and EG. I think Desertphile summed up the situation pithily in his video which can be found on YouTube.

We also have to remember Prof. Laithwaite's finding that he could move mass using mutually independent (virtually orthogonal) EG's.

[cloud camper]

OK Frank - sorry I didn't respond sooner as I've really been cranking in the hours on my project. Trying to get as much done as possible before my machinist buddy kicks me out of his shop!

Don't remember too much from the Steorn days except for the Whipmag work.

That's still on one of my back burners and I should really be working on that instead of the protoclock but I need to stay focused on one project at a time!

I don't see how EG could be a factor in the WM but I would like to hear more of your thoughts.

My attention has been on back EMF elimination and I believe I have a possible concept. The idea is to exactly oppose the back emf from the GW section against the back emf of the AGW, ideally totally cancelling both back emf's but leaving both forward emf's. It still uses both the GW and AGW rotating stator aspects. All components have been fabbed for the new proto and all I need to do is assemble it. But I'm just really lousy at multitasking.

On the current theme of NG and EG (I'm not a huge fan of those terms as no one from outside the forum listening in has a clue) but they are definitely handy descriptors.

One could use two separate sources of EG to create a dipole but what would create the initial rotation in the first place? I don't see a way to piggyback off separate EG fields but I believe it may be possible to maintain the dipole between an NG and an EG field, which is what I'm trying for with the protoclock.

Since the EG fields are always secondary to the prime NG field (at least on the Earth's surface) I believe one will need a continual reference back to a prime field. But that's just one man's opinion. Until someone comes up with a working device, it's all just speculation anyway.

Anyway, would love to hear more of your ideas on the Whipmag! I believe it still has a lot of potential.

I sent you an email pic of my previous version for your eyes only but please don't repost as the current version is still very similar. Hope you like it!

[cloud camper]

The trolls are racing to the finish line. OK mostly my machinists project who is installing a 130 hp Yamaha R1 bike engine in his rat rod.

At 79 yrs he is going vintage racing and had to go to the Yamaha engine to lighten the front end so he can drift the corners better!

You can see the custom U-joint he had to fab to mate up the bike output sprocket to the Ford Mustang transmission. This will give him 30 forward ratios as there are five in the Mustang tranny and six in the Yamaha!



Back to the slow lane I had to redesign the detent arm twice now as it kept bending when the escape wheel gets loose under spring tension.

Started with Ace Hardware 3/4" square .063 wall which is crap and then had to go to the good stuff - 6061 T6 with .120 wall. Now we're bulletproof.

Replaced the 3/8" allthread escape arm with a 3/4" thick shaped nylon piece as it was bending too. There is terrific force on this piece as it prevents the tightly wound clock spring from turning the escape wheel until the detent arm is lifted. Because of the large force on this piece, a nylon to nylon interface is desired to reduce friction.

The polycarb flex plate flexed too much and cracked so then changed to a
1/16" phenolic plate which is much stronger under flexion.

The plate (light brown color) must be rigid in the CCW direction and flexible in the CW.

Installed the spring tension arm and finished the secondary oscillator.
The primary oscillator will just be the pendulum arm turned 90 degrees which becomes a weighted lever that drives the secondary.

The escapement is working well under hand operation but I need to now apply a load as winding the spring with no load can be frightening!

When parts start breaking under load components must be redesigned to handle the stress, which takes much time to correct.

The great unknown with this project is what efficiency can be expected with the escapement. A low efficiency would mean that too much energy is wasted in the loop closing process.

[WaltzCee]

What ever became of this? Excellent discussion of escapements at the beginning and a mention of the analog computer Antikythera.

• • Now we have an oscillating mechanism that is not a wheel but the output of which can drive a wheel.

hum. The vector sum of two conservative forces (gravity and a rubber band) is adequate to spin a wheel and force another sum to do it some more?

[cloud camper]

Hi Walt, thanks for your interest.

No, there is no hope of gaining energy from a static gravitational field no matter what you do with gravity and a rubber band IMHO.

This concept requires an asymetric oscillation of energy between a falling weight in a static uniform (time invariant) gravitational field - what Frank calls an NG or Newtonian gravity field with an artificial time variant field caused by accelerated rotation. Frank calls this an EG or Ersatz gravity field.

The idea is that the fixed potential GPE of a falling weight can be used to spin up a rotating mass (think of a 48" dia yo-yo) which then creates an artificial internal rotating GPE field that has the potential of creating much more GPE inside the yo-yo than existed in the static GPE field.

So as the weight falls in the static gravitational field, the field strength is increasing inside the yo-yo's internal rotating GPE field. If this field is taken full advantage of a large internal impact can be created with swinging weights that will create a sharp impulse driving an external weight into vertical mechanical resonance. This impulse energy can also be used to shock wind an escapement spring. You might observe the robust construction of the escapement lever.

The escapement spring is then released at the right time to lift the input weight back to the initial position. The escapement spring can also deliver output pulses to an external "wheel" - think of pulsed bicycle pedals. The yo-yo is not the wheel and is only part of the oscillator.

The yo-yo will be nearly stopped at this point making retraction of the interconnected swinging weights very easy with a light spring retraction. The yo-yo will then accelerate in the other direction as soon as the input weight is raised, repeating the cycle.

We thereby create an assymetric oscillator, oscillating energy back and forth between a static time invariant GPE (NG) field and an artificial time variant GPE field (EG).

As the GPE decreases linearly in the NG field, the GPE rapidly increases in the EG field by the square of rpm - therefore time variant.

You can think of this concept sort of like dropping a weight when it's heavy and then lifting it when it is light - sort of.

Same concept repeated below from an earlier post:

I appreciate your optimism Frank!

But as we all know the devil lies in the details. There are still some fussy
details to be worked out.

While the sims show as high as 390% gain, frictional losses could cancel the show.

But yeah, the idea is to oscillate energy back and forth between an NG field and an EG as you like to call it and take advantage of each while avoiding the disadvantages.

The idea here is the forces go up by the square of rpm while in motion but
while in the NG state remain linear/constant.

Pulses created while in the EG state are then stored in the clock spring to
make up lost PE thru the escapement and restore the NG state back to original values for a new cycle.

That's why I believe this could be an asymmetric oscillator.

And why it is neither a gravity or motion wheel as it is a hybrid between the two.

Neither gravity by itself or motion by itself can power a wheel.

I believe you must combine the two.

Again, no claims of any kind expressed or implied. This is simply an experimental test rig to test various theories. Your mileage may vary!

[Grimer]

I like it. 8-) . A lot.

Edit. You're a genius, Cloud. You've just solved the Milkovic problem of the energy wasted at the weight end.

With reference to Raymond Head's oscillator, the weight must be lifted onto a platform so as to shorten that
wire and the wire then replaced by a rigid rod.

When the swinging pendulum jerks the weight up, the rod rises through a hole in the beam and is grabbed
by an "escapement" ratchet several notches up from the initial position.
This feeds all the energy from the lift back into the pendulum.

The problem with most implementations of Milko is that the connection is rigid and the waste of energy is not apparent.

I'll have to dig out the relevant bits of previous Milko posts in the morning - but now I'm going back to bed. :-)

[WaltzCee]

• • This concept requires an asymetric oscillation of energy between a falling weight
    in a static uniform (time invariant) gravitational field - what Frank calls an NG or
    Newtonian gravity field with an artificial time variant field caused by accelerated
    rotation. Frank calls this an EG or Ersatz gravity field.

• • cloud camper

Stretched out synthetic gravity? When you double the speed of the yo-yo you'll have 4 times the energy in it but as you say you're getting that energy from NG. I don't think NG will work for free. I think the EG might just be looked at as rotational kinetic energy (rke).

[Grimer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3I2zeoUbzg

Somebody has already got there first as you can see from the video above.

How so?

That doesn't look like a Milko at all.

Well - think about it.

In the Milko, energy is fed back to the pendulum till it gets over the top.
Eventually it spins so fast that everything starts jumping up and down like crazy.

So we add a flywheel to calm things down.

In bailywick1's "DOMINANT FLYWHEEL" the out of balance crank is the pendulum.

The weight is the Milko weight.

Bailywick1 only has one YouTube video. That doesn't seem like hoaxer behaviour. He doesn't sound like a hoaxer either.

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Interesting to see Ken Behrendt's name among the comments.
He was banned from the forum for being too verbose.
At one time he was top of the league in terms of postings.

I felt a bit sorry for him when out of morbid curiosity I read the history of people who have been banned. Still, he's found a new home on JC's blog where he seems quite happy.