Protoclocks, escapements and closing the loop in PM

[Furcurequs]

Well, nothing's that simple. ...lol

After looking more closely, I don't know if Carl Sagan personally had anything to do with that study guide or not. Although Google listed him as one of the three authors, his name may actually only be in the title.

The guilty party may then be Ann Elwood, the main author of the study guide, and/or her co-author Linda Wood!

I've been searching, but I've not been able to find out if Carl Sagan actually had any personal involvement in that publication.

Darn you, Sagan groupies!

...lol

[Ed]

Now that you mention it, I think I can even vaguely recall Carl saying the word ersatz on an episode of Cosmos.

My problem is not with potentially using "ersatz gravity" to refer to artificial gravity and avoid the whole CF/CP fake force type of conversation, especially when magnetic boots could fall under that same umbrella. My problem is with Frank wanting to have it both ways and also call it "natural". CF may be natural, but using it "as" gravity is not.

[ME]

There wouldn't be a point to make when there existed no explanation for such phenomenon. In that case I would encourage the use because eventually it would make things simpler.
But as its effect is known and in normal use, it only makes things more complex and confusing: the worst thing being that the exact mechanism remains unexplained by the author and purely based on "view".

A question, does anyone know how the centrifugal artificial gravity works?

Centrifugal artifical gravity, or AG, is well understood.
Any moving object going around in circles needs to deflect its linear motion with a centripetal acceleration: a[cp] = v²/r = ω²·r
This is acceleration is a mathematical requirement to keep things go in a circular path, how it's done is the next question.
This acceleration could for example be provided by a string which keeps this objects at a specific radius from the center. The tension on this string equals this force F[cp] = m·v²/r = m·ω²·r
This acceleration could also be provided by some structure on the outside.
In my topic about "centrifugal" I showed the effect when a ball is thrown straight up.

For the one inside such rotating space station there are a few effects which makes it different from Earth's gravity (EG).
When throwing that ball the path seems to curve, this happens due to the fictitious Coriolis effect.
F[co] = -2·m·ω·v
Where (ω) is the rotation of the environment, and (v) is the velocity of mass (m).
This Coriolis effect is also present in EG, but this effect is quite small due to relative slow rotation of the earth (1/1440 RPM)

Perhaps my explanation is not entirely perfect or complete. At least it can be looked up and verified.
Talking about "references", here'a bonus video (1960): https://youtu.be/aRDOqiqBUQY?t=947

[agor95]

@ME Agreed

[Grimer]

Well alrighty then.

If it's good enough for Carl Sagan, it's good enough for me!

Thank you cloud - :-) - and I think I've sorted out the Keenie thanks to ME's insight that the weights on my single wheel were trying to roll down a slope.

Interestingly enough it involves two concepts which were used in the Steorn Forum. Gear-Wise (GW) and Anti-Gear-Wise (AGW). Remember them?

The WhipMag is also relevant.

I know I'm beginning to sound like Trevor but I'm sure you'll agree, worthwhile research is two paces forward and three paces back. ;-)

[ovyyus]

http://trevormajor.com/2009/ersatz-religion/

In the German language, ersatz simply meant “substitute� or “replacement.� For homebound troops the word came to mean “fake� or “inferior,� and so it entered the ever-malleable English language.

[Grimer]

Good link.

[WaltzCee]

I've had this idea for a long time. Now, I want to share it with everyone. Why, you might ask? This is my thinking. If I'm thinking it, then someone else is thinking it also. I'm always behind the curve. That's my experience. I appeal to those in similar shoes. Have you not met someone that knows everything? There you go. We have the same shoe siZe. Something in common. But, in spite of all that, this is what I want to share. Damn. Now I Forget my idea!! Could someone out there help me? What was I thinking??

[ME]

The only right answer we are all thinking at this very moment:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVygqjyS4CA

[cloud camper]

Well alrighty then.

If it's good enough for Carl Sagan, it's good enough for me!

Thank you cloud - :-) - and I think I've sorted out the Keenie thanks to ME's insight that the weights on my single wheel were trying to roll down a slope.

Interestingly enough it involves two concepts which were used in the Steorn Forum. Gear-Wise (GW) and Anti-Gear-Wise (AGW). Remember them?

The WhipMag is also relevant.

I know I'm beginning to sound like Trevor but I'm sure you'll agree, worthwhile research is two paces forward and three paces back. ;-)

Never could understand the Keenie too well - there's a bewildering number of possible variations. Where to begin?

But I believe I've discovered something significant with the GW/AGW gearing combo in the Whipmag. And that is the torque of the AGW reaction is reverse sensed to the GW making it possible to mutually cancel BEMF forces.

And if we can cancel BEMF, we are left with only forward EMF!

The Paul Babcock motor http://magneticenergysecrets.com/ is basically the same concept except requires extensive electronics.

[Grimer]

Well alrighty then.

If it's good enough for Carl Sagan, it's good enough for me!

Thank you cloud - :-) - and I think I've sorted out the Keenie thanks to ME's insight that the weights on my single wheel were trying to roll down a slope.

Interestingly enough it involves two concepts which were used in the Steorn Forum. Gear-Wise (GW) and Anti-Gear-Wise (AGW). Remember them?

The WhipMag is also relevant.

I know I'm beginning to sound like Trevor but I'm sure you'll agree, worthwhile research is two paces forward and three paces back. ;-)

Never could understand the Keenie too well - there's a bewildering number of possible variations. Where to begin?

But I believe I've discovered something significant with the GW/AGW gearing combo in the WhipMag. And that is the torque of the AGW reaction is reverse sensed to the GW making it possible to mutually cancel BEMF forces.

And if we can cancel BEMF, we are left with only forward EMF!

The Paul Babcock motor http://magneticenergysecrets.com/ is basically the same concept except requires extensive electronics.

Ooo! That sound so similar to my intuition that it must be right. ;-)

You know what they say:

• Great minds think alike

and we'll ignore the "fools seldom differ" bit

Now where was I? Ah, yes. My intuition. :-)

Well, I imagined two swirling eddies in the magnetic component of the Beta-atmosphere, a little eddy whirling fast on the outside of a big eddy whirling slowly. The two are locked in Gear-Wise (GW) motion (I've given abbreviation and words and for the benefit of ME who has difficulty in remembering what abbreviations stand for ;-) ).

But the little whorl complains it cold outside and keeps scratching at the big whorl trying to get in. Eventually a whorl-flap momentarily opens in the thick skin of the big whorl and the little whorl leaps inside where he's nice and warm.

But by getting inside the big whorl's skin something strange happens.
Whereas on the outside he was locked in GW motion with his big brother, now he is locked in AGW (Anti-Gear-Wise) motion.

So on the outside the magnetic fluid angular momentum of the whole system balanced and there was magnetic fluid angular momentum conservation, on the inside there is a huge unbalance.

But we can't have that can we. We have to balance magnetic angular momentum books or the auditors will have our guts for garters.

So to balance the books the big whorl starts accelerating till it reaches a new equilibrium with magnetic viscosity.

Sorry Desertphile,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsRwuHyF ... B1A28D2C06
the WhipMag isn't a fake whatever you may think.

Big whorls have little whorls
Which feed on their velocity,
And little whorls have lesser whorls
And so on to viscosity.

[Grimer]

Well alrighty then.

If it's good enough for Carl Sagan, it's good enough for me!

Thank you cloud - :-) - and I think I've sorted out the Keenie thanks to ME's insight that the weights on my single wheel were trying to roll down a slope.

Interestingly enough it involves two concepts which were used in the Steorn Forum. Gear-Wise (GW) and Anti-Gear-Wise (AGW). Remember them?

The WhipMag is also relevant.

I know I'm beginning to sound like Trevor but I'm sure you'll agree, worthwhile research is two paces forward and three paces back. ;-)

Never could understand the Keenie too well - there's a bewildering number of possible variations. Where to begin?
...

We begin by cutting down on the system variety
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variety_(cybernetics)
"In cybernetics, the term variety denotes the total number of distinct states of a system."

We can cut down on the number of distinct states of the weights by bringing them all together in a circle and locking their relative positions. The locked circle of weights can enter and leave the slots in a rolling motion.

ME gave me that insight when he drew up the following diagram

• • 

and wrote:

"In the ideal scenario it has to move horizontally to change its radius (it actually wants to roll down some slope). The CoM is 90 degrees ahead of this motion."

With the weights brought into a circle between the wheels and locked together we have reduced the system to 3 items - the outer wheel(F), the inner wheel(S) and the weights(HG) which connect them in a dynamic fashion as the system rotates.

I believe that even though the Keenie and the Rubber Band Motor (RBM) appear vastly different, they are essentially the same and generate gravitational energy in the same way.

The RBM outer rim maps to the Keenie outer wheel.
The RBM rubber-band-set maps to the Keenie ring of locked weights.
The RBM hub maps to the inner wheel.

If Cloud feels this is unacceptably wandering off the subject I'll move to my Extraordinary Mass... thread.

[AB Hammer]

After time I have started looking at the Keenie wheel with similarities to the Bhaskara wheel approach but on two different wheels in one unit. You are showing the shift at 1:00 and 7:00 position but the other mechanism that was lost. I believe shifted it at noon and 6:00 to achieve the needed shift effect.

[agor95]

This was a rushed job.

However it is possible to move the mass before top.

Also you can block the mass at the bottom until it is in the inner radius
position.

I can see some improvements to this illustration.

[Grimer]

This was a rushed job.

However it is possible to move the mass before top.

Also you can block the mass at the bottom until it is in the inner radius
position.

I can see some improvements to this illustration.

You're not kidding. All I saw at first was a blue circle on a brown square. Things improved a bit when I clicked on it. ;-)