Weight question

[Jonathan]

I agree that it doesn't work. Attached is a time lapse drawing of the pression point of a single weight. It looks like it'll go cw, but there is a zig-zag on the left, so it won't. Also, if you isolate a single part of the device, and suppose that it works as you hope (force is redistributed by an eighth of a turn), then wouldn't it try to come to rest like is shown in the second attachment? We know it wouldn't do that, so the forces must not be redistributed as you hope.
EDIT PS I loaded one picture, then the other, and it came out in the wrong order. So I deleted them and reloaded the other way, and it still came out in the wrong order.

[unstable]

Hi... thus not even this one may work ?

[ken_behrendt]

Claudio...

Nice design. I actually tried building something like this DECADES ago...it did not work.

My model used large steel ball bearing that were held in transparent square plastic boxes that were glued to the ends of 8 spokes. The diameter of the ball bearings was slightly less than the inside thickness of the plastic boxes so that the ball bearings could roll around inside of the boxes. The idea was that the CG of the design's 8 ball bearings would shift to the right side of the axle and then accelerate the spokes enough to allow the next shift of the CG to occur. I only needed to rotate the spokes 45° to make this design work, but I could not get it to turn through the 45°.

Below is an Paint sketch I did of the design and posted on this Discussion Board shortly after I joined earlier this year.

ken

[unstable]

Ken, good idea.... I see the 45° problem :( .. It is very difficult to make a overbalanced wheel working design ...but is there one possible solution about overbalanced wheel ? maybe NO...
Here an attachment about my previous sketch ... shure don't work.

[ken_behrendt]

Claudio...

I notice the colored lines connecting the various ball weights in your recent design, but I do not understand what they are supposed to be. Are they some sort of connection between the weights that shifts them around?

ken

[unstable]

Ken .. maybe I am not correctly understand physics low applyed to a wheel :) but to my eyes I look 4 lever interconnected by a common fulcrum. In this design lever are time shifted (one weight per lever) by 1/8 turn like previous design.... every lever result in advantageous or disadvantageous force in function of its position between 0 to 360°. Am I wrong ?
This design look to be interesting (at least to me).

Claudio

[ME]

...It is very difficult to make a overbalanced wheel working design ...but is there one possible solution about overbalanced wheel ? maybe NO...

My guess is that an overbalanced wheel doesn't work purely on Potential Energy (and converting that into Kinetic).

Two "elements" won't work!!

Just like a fractal type (IFS:Iterated Function Systems), one needs at least three points to create a chaotic picture- also true with the unsolvable three-body-problem-
A dual-point IFS gives nothing interesting. A binairy-planetairy system is solved by Kepler.

Two points gives balance, one way or the other.
Two "elements" also gives balance.

So we need another "element" to out-run or trick the force of gravity.

I suggest we look at Inertia, interupted pendulae, multispeed wheels... etc

[ken_behrendt]

Marchello wrote:

My guess is that an overbalanced wheel doesn't work purely on Potential Energy (and converting that into Kinetic).

The problem with trying to find alternative methods by which Bessler's wheels worked (i.e., centrifugal forces, pendulums, etc.) is that his wheels were self-starting. In a wheel that is initially stationary, the only force at work that would move and accelerate it would be solely due to its state of imbalance because there would be no centrifugal forces present.

ken

[unstable]

Ken ... is there documents about self starting Bessler wheel ? What I read on internet is referred only to bidirectional wheel (no self start), have you some interesting doc to read ?

[rlortie]

Me,

Two points gives balance, one way or the other.
Two "elements" also gives balance.

So we need another "element" to out-run or trick the force of gravity.

I suggest we look at Inertia, interupted pendulae, multispeed wheels... etc

How about a wheel inside a wheel that looks like a grindstone, capable of higher rpm than the outer one, they both carry the weights on the descent but only the inner carry's them back up. Outer wheel is tricking gravity as there is not weights on its ascending side. Inner wheel being much heavier and turning faster builds inertial force to sustain the system.

Ralph

[ME]

[Disclaimer 1: this is only my opinion/observation/theory/hypothesis, otherwise I already had such a wheel !]

Ken:

...his wheels were self-starting. In a wheel that is initially stationary, the only force at work that would move and accelerate it would be solely due to its state of imbalance because there would be no centrifugal forces present.

Well, there is balanced and balanced, and an overbalanced wheel should be -as Kunstler said- well balanced (one push will make it flip).

I find myself -and others- making wheels which are (let's make up a name) potential-machines; they trade PotentialEnergy for KineticEnergy, because there was inbalance.. and this system will always find it's balance. (but maybe not, and I'm wrong)
The energy it gains on it's way down, is needed for it's way up. And in the best cases an energy graph will show up like a sinus-like function (most of the time with different frequencies), or a PE vs KE graph is a closed figure, or spirals in most cases to the center zero.
Any graph whose function can be determined by sinus functions (freq>0) has an average of 0. How many weights and angles you use doesn't matter, you are just adding frequencies.
[Disclaimer 2: This my Scientific-ME, and not my curious-experimental-ME]

So we need something else to play with.
for instance pendulae inside a wheel. When the wheel is restrained, at least 1 pendulum should not be in it's resting point. This means that such a pendulum is:
1. resting on something
2. is a guided pendulum.

A resting pendulum is maybe the easiest to understand and to simulate, but a guided pendulum is maybe the most interesting.
What if you somehow have "etched" the path of the pendulum in the wheel at a certain RPM by using levers or other means. Then such a pendulum will also "swing" when you turn the wheel very slowly by hand. When you release the wheel, it will realy start to swing and (hopefullly) will get its rest when swinging in the etched-in path at the specified RPM.

Ralph:

How about a wheel inside a wheel that looks like a grindstone, capable of higher rpm than the outer one...

A have an animation (not a simulation) of a two speed wheel, where the outer wheel goes twice as fast as the inner wheel, and it will only be over-balanced with more than 3 weights...

[Georg Künstler]

Hi Me,
the function is not a sine shape, the function is a saw shape, as shown in earlier mails. This function you will get with an impact.

"Rupfen" implies : fast up, slow down. Translate from german the word "Reissen", "hochreissen".

the future has begun

Georg

[ME]

the function is not a sine shape, the function is a saw shape,

Although I'm at work right now... (sometimes you need a break) I did a quick Google-search, to make it clear that multiple frequencies can make up lots of shapes.
http://candle.ctit.utwente.nl/wp5/tel-s ... s/fourier/
You'll get a basic sawtooth with Y(x)=Sin(x)/1+Sin(2*x)/2+...Sin(n*x)/n

But the result remain 0

[ken_behrendt]

Claudio...

It is well documented that Bessler first wheels were one-directional. These were the wheel he demonstrated at Gera and Draschwitz. Only his later and largest wheels at Merseburg and Kassel were bi-directional.


Marchello...

Very impressive animation you have there. I am tempted to try modeling it on WM2D, but it looks too complicated. Maybe I can make a simplified version for testing purposes...

ken

[Georg Künstler]

Hi ME,

of course you can make any shape of function with Jean Baptiste Joseph Fourier transformation. But Fourier lived about 1822 not 1712. So Bessler was not able to used this transformation.


Can a high jumper cross 2.40 when he is very slow ?
He has to jump as fast as possible up.

So fast up, slow down is the way of the saw shape that is used-->(Rupfen). Bessler named his device 'RUPFERER'.

the future has begun

Georg