All the Clues on a Detective’s Poster Board

[Sam Peppiatt]

Hi Agor95,

You have to have the heavy weight in the center with the bell crank. Have you ever seen the pumpkin chunkers? They drop an insanely heavy weight that will throw a pumpkin a mile! The reset has to be done in a flash! There are any number of ways to reset the slider(s) but none are fast enough.

Don't you see? No, I guess not, Sam

[agor95]

@Sam

I am reading but building the model.

I will get around to recommendations later.

Regards

[Stewart]

I know I am opening a can of worms , but the 4th translation on page one is probably the worst translation I have come across , including that from jim_mich .

To include the whole dictionary in a translation is just a very bad idea , pick one even if it is one from ene mini myni no .

Daan

Oh grow up Daan!
You've had it in for me since I criticised your translation of Meetsma's testimony in DT:
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=89546

The fact you were unable to provide an understandable English translation of old Dutch, a language one would think was similar to your native Afrikaans, means you're clearly not qualified to pass judgement on English translations of old German and Latin texts.

You should know and recognise that jim_mich has not ever provided a translation, as he had no understanding of German grammar. Anything provided by jim_mich as a "translation" should be ignored.

You're criticising me for putting several options for some words separated by slashes. I sometimes do this for the benefit of people here to get a deeper understanding of the words used and are clearly not meant to be final translations. I'm obviously quite capable of picking a word! My books, yet to be published, have finalised translations with only a single word of course! Feel free to criticise my finished work when it's published.

This highlights the reasons why I don't really want my draft translations floating about the main forum, because when my books are published there may be small changes.

That being said, my drafts here are accurate, and mine are probably the most accurate translations of this material that you'll find. I can explain all my work in detail at a grammatical level. None of the other translators are available to do that, assuming they are even capable of it.

You'll find few if any people out there with a greater in depth knowledge of all of Bessler's writings. I've transcribed and translated Bessler's handwritten notes and letters as well as his printed books, the vast majority of which makes perfect sense to me.

If you're struggling to understand the English translations, then I'm sorry to hear that, but that would appear to be down to your poor understanding of English. In which case your best bet is to find someone who can translate the old texts into Afrikaans for you.

Anyway, to keep insisting that my translations are bad really does show your ignorance and is quite pathetic.

I think it's best if people don't post what translations they may have of mine in this and other topics, but wait for me to get around to posting my latest versions with explanations for each of the clue translations.

Stewart

[Sam Peppiatt]

Stewart,

For what ever it's worth, the interpretation that you did for me was exactly right. I don't see how it could have been done any better!

Stick to your guns, Sam

[ME]

...Anyway, to keep insisting that my translations are bad really does show your ignorance and is quite pathetic.

Translating that stuff is really difficult. Thanks Stewart.
As a Dutch-guy I'm almost obliged to try and attempt a Meetsma-translation myself... Within the best of my non-expert ability I think I did well (kugh), but I think I'll leave the rest to you Stewart.
(Stewart's 2011 version: http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... 9546#89546]

Op't PERPETUMEUBILLE, geinventeert
door de Heer Raad ORFFYREUS, en van syn
WelEdele Kunstlievende gemaakt op het
Slot Wysensteyn by Cassel.

EEn selve Gewicht, te maaken swaar en licht.
Licht en swaar te maaken syn Wonder-raare Saken!

Te Meer in eennen Rond;
Seer dichte toegeslooten, soo aardiglick gestooten.
Om op syn As te drayen, ja rechts en lincks te swayen,
Waarlyck een schoone Vond.

Ik heb den Ganck gehoort:
Doch heb het niet gesien, ten Proev van yder een;
Was't door de Vorst versegeld, om den Loop wel geregeld,
Te brengen immer voort.

De Kunst die is gewis;
Ik kan het vast betoge, voor Leege en voor Hooge,
Dit's myn Getuigenis.

G.M. Meetsma

I think Meetsma was a bit creative with words, a bit too much poetry.

The first sentence is the strangest. Two words: NL:"Perpetumeubille", and NL:"kunstlievende".
The first word just seems uncommon. The second word has an the added NL:"-lievende"; Usually an indication of a little jest. With NL:"weledele"/honorable I would have expected a more respectable NL:"kunstenaer"/artist.
Starting a sentence with (NL:"Op't"/EN:"At the") is also bit strange. We are here "at the party, beach, location, 'Perpetual-motion-festival'"?
Perhaps it indeed was just like a happy event, and/or perhaps "meubille" just rhymed nicely with "Cassel".

Here's my attempt to convey my impression of that piece of text.

At the PerpetualMobilial, invited by Sir Councellor ORFFYREUS,
and about his honorable artistry made in the Weissenstein Keep at Cassel. *1

The same weight, make them heavy and light,
[and then] to make them light and heavy are wonder-fooly affairs. *2

Especially when in a circle; *3
Very neatly enclosed, so nicely hammered. *4
To swivel on its axis, yes swaying left and right,
truly a beautiful find.

I've heard the gait:
Yet I haven't seen it, and everyone tried.
It was sealed by the king, in order to keep the pace,
going forever.

The artwork is genuine;
I can already swear, by earth and heaven,
this is my testimony

G.M. Meetsma.

1. - or Keep, Stronghold... Castle (=NL:"Kasteel").
2. - Probably a creative recombination of NL:"Wonder-bare"/Marvelous and NL:"(be)Wonder-aar"/Admirer, while NL:"Raar"=Strange. Adding "[and then]" seems appropriate because of the change in word-order, but could be just false.
3. - This translation raises about the same questions in Dutch: is this(/are those) weight(s) round, or does it go round, or inside a "Round" for which I'm tempted to reform the whole sentence to a "Especially inside a drum". Just because "Rond" rhymes with "Vond", it should be a "drum" :-\
4. - NL:"gestooten" is more like 'punched', I think an unprofesional word for NL:"getimmerd", which is actually "hammered" or "nailed". He probably just meant "nicely build"?

In my imagination the sentence at *2 might be an indication of how Bessler presented a single weight to the crowd: "Look here, a single weight which could be both light and heavy at the same time... ".

Add: how tricky, NL:"geinventeert"/invented not NL:"geïnviteerd"/invited, changes the whole first sentence. (My failure -:- more credits to Stewart)

[daanopperman]

Hi Stewart ,

I see you are still trying to sell yourself .

You may call it what you like , but YOU have now clue what is written or not , and if you think I am bashing you for my translation your missing the pot , the old and later is not different languages , it just morphed into a modern for the need of new ideas and inventions .

If you were so great a understander of the old high Dutch , I would think you have a runner by now since there is nothing hidden from you .

I never claimed to be a international famed translated , but I know when you are just bulshitting .

You remind me of Johnny , when marching parade on open day , when his mha told pha , " Hi look Pha , Johnny is the only one in step "

It is OK for you to bash other translaters much superior to yourself , but I suppose in the land of the blind the one eye is King .

If translating , why do you insert the whole dictionary , it is you whom are translating , not the reader , and what is the use we read a translation and may have 20 odd different interpretations of the same text .

You sound like the Japanese scholar who learned English over the Voice of America , with all the disturbance he included all the swishes and interference .

By the way , I discredited you translation long before Geertsma , so it seems you are not only a bad tranlater but suffer from memory loss .

Yes , that is about the only thing you got right , is my native language is old German , for it is from there , from then till now . Afrikaans is much closer to old German than Whelch is to English .

I suggest you try your hand there , you will have so much insight .

Daan .

[Sam Peppiatt]

Stewart,

Tell him to Fuck Off!! Sam Peppiatt

[justsomeone]

Easy Sam. 😊

Daan., Stewart has countless hours in his work and I for one appreciate everything he does! You can just agree to disagree. Peace

[ME]

my native language is old German

Daan, breath in.... breath out....

German, it's not even a real language: it's fake, it's a fake language!

[Stewart]

It just amazes me that you'd think someone who spoke a language similar to Bessler's old German would have more of a clue, but clearly not! Perhaps the real barrier is his English. Who knows. The important thing when translating into English is that the intended English speaking reader understands the translation, which we all do.

Daan has not once been able to prove any of my translations are wrong or provide any sensible alternatives, preferring instead to keep spouting ridiculous analogies that have no relevance to anything.

However, he does have a point about all/the/slashes. I thought I was being helpful by providing several word options to aid understanding with quick draft translations, but apparently it's confusing so I won't bother in future. My final versions for publication don't have those anyway. On the forum I'll instead try to explain anything that might not be entirely clear in a separate comment. If you don't understand a translation, then please say and I'll explain in more detail.

@Sam: On a forum with so many people of varied personalities, cultures and languages, we're not all always going to get along or agree on everything, however we should try to be as respectful and as tolerant as possible, although it may be hard at times! I would never say such a thing to Daan or wish him any ill will. I feel it is a shame we can't see eye to eye.

I'm not asking anyone to blindly believe everything I say. I can explain in detail everything I do and back up all translations with the necessary evidence. I welcome anyone to challenge me if you think I'm wrong about something, and if you can prove you are right then I'll correct my work.

Stewart

[WaltzCee]

Rocky's byline/quote is insightful.

"All the clues become clear when you see the working machine." - Rocky

I've never studied the clues, not even read Rocky's detailed list. I think a significant clue was given accidentally when the spring smacked the wheel.

Are there any clues suggesting energy has to be created? I'm going to get a 3D printer in the near future. Does anyone have any suggestions or thoughts on that?

Thanks

[Fletcher]

Hi Stewart .. I appreciate your efforts to clear up what are essentially muddy waters. I know its not easy at all.

And when your books are ready I'll buy them .. because ..

I'm sooo tired of reading endless 'translations' out there, that I don't know whats up or down, or garbage anymore.

Each time someone offers up a translation I mentally decide what their credibility level is. That is, their apparent expertise in translating from one language to another, and also whether they have any real knowledge of Bessler and what we seek to solve, so might provide better translation context or insight in choice of words, phrases, and sentence etc.

Occasionally all the ducks line up in an individual and I rate their translations as more reliable than others.

You are right up there if not at the top IMO.

I'm looking forward to just one 'go to' definitive source of Bessler's translated works, that I can read along side of JC's earlier contributions in the field which I have - yours will be as accurate as humanly possible I expect.

[ME]

However, he does have a point about all/the/slashes. I thought I was being helpful by providing several word options to aid understanding with quick draft translations, but apparently it's confusing so I won't bother in future. My final versions for publication don't have those anyway.

He doesn't.
What I learn from an occasional translation attempt is the difficulty in choosing an appropriate expression. In the above case, rhyming is clearly an obstruction. A too literal translation doesn't say a thing. And we all have to hope the translator's interpretation coincide with the author's intention/message/meaning.
One way or the other some information gets lost (I guess most of the time a play with words, and thus exclude some flavor/seriousness/humor/personality so we could miss some signaling of sarcasm or admiration for example).
Because we all are still trying to figure out what the most useful information should be, I think we simply need as many kinds of translations as possible. (Hopefully categorized)

IOW: I like the slashes, perhaps you could create two or three complete text variants for readability reasons.

I'm not asking anyone to blindly believe everything I say. I can explain in detail everything I do and back up all translations with the necessary evidence. I welcome anyone to challenge me if you think I'm wrong about something, and if you can prove you are right then I'll correct my work.

Hence my shown attempt. (sorry Fletcher)

[Fletcher]

Naaah ME .. you tick quite a few boxes as well, so I read yours with interest, as I do Oystein's for instance.

I never believe any translation as verbatim for the exact reasons you gave above. So they only have levels of probability for me. Context has a lot to do with it.

And Bessler wasn't afterall writing a technical manual for engineers nor producing some sort of verbal blueprint to his PM wheel. If he had been we wouldn't be looking for the flashlight in a dark room.

[Sam Peppiatt]

Stewart,

I have something for you to check on when you get a chance. See Wiki, clues this site, the 4th one down. It reads: "Who can make a pound weight rise as 4 oz. fall. Or 4 pounds rise as 16 oz. fall".

I know now, that this is wrong, it should be just the other way around. I.E, who can make 4 pounds fall as 16 oz. rise.

If the interpretation is correct then, it must be some miss direction on Bessler's part. Anyway it had me going for a long time.

Sam