Flippin' Flywheels
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The principle appears to be sound, so far. We have broken conservation of momentum, precisely in the manner predicted.
Here's a slightly refined version of the mechanism, again running without weights yet attached to the poles:
..beautiful little movement isn't it? The weight poles rounding the corners are subjected to boosted CF, while their linearly-moving partners are inducing negligible CF.
And as you can see, it's perfectly conservative. Slight oscillation - we're only monitoring the rotor bodies here, not that of the poles, but net system momentum is evidently held constant.
It's simply the previous rig, but with a more-elongated track, and a second, counter-rotating disc to attach the track to (it was previously fixed to the background). It's all-plastic, and the two rotors are 1 kg each.
Is it a Roberval, or a balance lever, or a paternoster? Yes! It is.
Soo... does it actually work as intended..?
It seems to - as noted yesterday, the simplest test is to let it destroy its own momentum - for that, we just need to let the sliding masses be flung out by the rotating poles, while simultaneously using their PE to drag the other two, linearly-moving masses, back in, with minimal resistance from CF, and so ready to be flung outwards again.
Because these linearly-moving masses are subject to negligible CF, pulling them back in does not apply the usual acceleration we would expect when pulling an orbiting mass inwards.
And the really cool part is this: the deceleration applied by the flung masses using the ice-skater effect would usually only lower the angular KE, but not the system's angular momentum - on the contrary, the effect depends upon CoM itself holding true - if radius rises, so does MoI, and since angular momentum is MoI times RPM, if MoI goes up, RPM must go down, to keep the net total of momentum constant. So the deceleration works precisely because of CoM, not in spite of it. Very fundamental point, this, and its implications must be appreciated..
However, because the poles' relative 90° positions are held constant by the track, these angular decelerations at the ends are also decelerating the masses coming straight down through the micro-CF zone - and without orbital rotation for this phase of their journey, their momentum is temporarily purely a function of their rest mass times their linear velocity... and that velocity is being decelerated by CoM! How delightfully perverse? So, every time a mass is flung outwards, CoM destroys some momentum! Bwahahah!
Check it out:
...destruction of angular momentum in a closed system without gravity or fictional losses! This supposed-impossibility can be deduced from first principles, and works exactly as expected!
This was the easy test, since it's entirely passive, and needs no further parts.
The asymmetry should of course be reversible too, though (as explained previously), however this needs an additional layer of mechanism to manage the PE required to retract the masses against CF, as well as a means of gaining momentum without gaining velocity (ie. governor mechs).
On a roll so far... We can trick CoM into destroying momentum in a lossless closed system. Physics, bitch! Hoo-yeah.
Here's a slightly refined version of the mechanism, again running without weights yet attached to the poles:
..beautiful little movement isn't it? The weight poles rounding the corners are subjected to boosted CF, while their linearly-moving partners are inducing negligible CF.
And as you can see, it's perfectly conservative. Slight oscillation - we're only monitoring the rotor bodies here, not that of the poles, but net system momentum is evidently held constant.
It's simply the previous rig, but with a more-elongated track, and a second, counter-rotating disc to attach the track to (it was previously fixed to the background). It's all-plastic, and the two rotors are 1 kg each.
Is it a Roberval, or a balance lever, or a paternoster? Yes! It is.
Soo... does it actually work as intended..?
It seems to - as noted yesterday, the simplest test is to let it destroy its own momentum - for that, we just need to let the sliding masses be flung out by the rotating poles, while simultaneously using their PE to drag the other two, linearly-moving masses, back in, with minimal resistance from CF, and so ready to be flung outwards again.
Because these linearly-moving masses are subject to negligible CF, pulling them back in does not apply the usual acceleration we would expect when pulling an orbiting mass inwards.
And the really cool part is this: the deceleration applied by the flung masses using the ice-skater effect would usually only lower the angular KE, but not the system's angular momentum - on the contrary, the effect depends upon CoM itself holding true - if radius rises, so does MoI, and since angular momentum is MoI times RPM, if MoI goes up, RPM must go down, to keep the net total of momentum constant. So the deceleration works precisely because of CoM, not in spite of it. Very fundamental point, this, and its implications must be appreciated..
However, because the poles' relative 90° positions are held constant by the track, these angular decelerations at the ends are also decelerating the masses coming straight down through the micro-CF zone - and without orbital rotation for this phase of their journey, their momentum is temporarily purely a function of their rest mass times their linear velocity... and that velocity is being decelerated by CoM! How delightfully perverse? So, every time a mass is flung outwards, CoM destroys some momentum! Bwahahah!
Check it out:
...destruction of angular momentum in a closed system without gravity or fictional losses! This supposed-impossibility can be deduced from first principles, and works exactly as expected!
This was the easy test, since it's entirely passive, and needs no further parts.
The asymmetry should of course be reversible too, though (as explained previously), however this needs an additional layer of mechanism to manage the PE required to retract the masses against CF, as well as a means of gaining momentum without gaining velocity (ie. governor mechs).
On a roll so far... We can trick CoM into destroying momentum in a lossless closed system. Physics, bitch! Hoo-yeah.
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...Just to clarify a point or two:
- in the live run above, the rig begins with exactly the same amount of velocity as the baseline run - one rotor's doing -20 RPM CW, the other, 20 RPM CCW. I also give the steel masses on the poles some angular momentum so they don't exert too much braking inertia on the system.
As you can see, though, the effect of this mass trajectory is profound, as would be expected by what is, after all, unreciprocated inertial torques from masses that are only ever flung outwards under CF, but never pulled back in against it.
You can also see that the rate of momentum loss is exponential - the effect is powered by motion itself, and since CF squares with angular velocity over radius, the higher the peak CF delta between inbound vs outbound masses, the more momentum is destroyed each cycle. Rate of loss reduces at lower speed as there's little CF variation in the first place, plus fewer cycles per unit time.
Basically the more momentum we give it, the faster it can chuck it down. And this dynamic should remain so in reverse, too - the faster it goes, the more momentum it makes per cycle.
I guess i needn't mention that this current config is also destroying energy, along with that momentum... LOL almost seems trivial..
- in the live run above, the rig begins with exactly the same amount of velocity as the baseline run - one rotor's doing -20 RPM CW, the other, 20 RPM CCW. I also give the steel masses on the poles some angular momentum so they don't exert too much braking inertia on the system.
As you can see, though, the effect of this mass trajectory is profound, as would be expected by what is, after all, unreciprocated inertial torques from masses that are only ever flung outwards under CF, but never pulled back in against it.
You can also see that the rate of momentum loss is exponential - the effect is powered by motion itself, and since CF squares with angular velocity over radius, the higher the peak CF delta between inbound vs outbound masses, the more momentum is destroyed each cycle. Rate of loss reduces at lower speed as there's little CF variation in the first place, plus fewer cycles per unit time.
Basically the more momentum we give it, the faster it can chuck it down. And this dynamic should remain so in reverse, too - the faster it goes, the more momentum it makes per cycle.
I guess i needn't mention that this current config is also destroying energy, along with that momentum... LOL almost seems trivial..
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Re: re: Flippin' Flywheels
Soz mate been forgetting to post me sims, here's the last couple...ME wrote:Wow... that's very nice!! I guess you use three joints per bar there?MrVibrating wrote:Managed to find a way to implement a frictionless paternoster in WM2D - no collisions to calculate! Yipee..! It's so smooth it almost processes in real-time at 200 Hz. I raised it to 400 Hz just to slow it down enough to see clearly:
...
Curved slot joints combined with radial slots were the key. Pretty sexy motion nuh?
Is that manual labor or programmed? Congratz anyway, very handy!
Please continue.but you're gonna love this..
And yes, each bar has a circular point element on its two corners closest the 'track', which is actually a stack of multiple identical tracks, one per joint, hence two per pole - 4 poles = 8 tracks, all superimposed neatly on top of one another.
The central pivot in between those two is a radial slot joint on the wheel. This seemed the simplest way to maintain the distances between the poles (as i was previously considering making another chain, which would've required at least one more track per link!). The tracks are fixed to the background in the first sim, and to a counter-rotor in the second.
I see no particular benefit of being statorless at this point, just wanted to check it out though. However with a counter-rotor as stator, we do have some residual CF through the "micro-CF zone". Whereas, using a fixed stator, it is literally a zero-CF zone, in principle. Zero force. Passively. Conservatively. Just what's required for a 100% energy asymmetry - ie. a full-force output integral with a zero-force input integral may be on the table..
PS. the first sim's not complete, the masses are just stuck to the middle of the poles awaiting pulley linkups. I'd just delete 'em and play with the mechanism - it's fascinating, working as a normal Roberval when two poles are on the linear section of track - so it's oblivious to load distributions upon the poles.
However as soon as the poles reach an angular section, it ceases being a Roberval and reverts to being an ordinary angular balance beam, and so is responsive to relative load distribution upon the poles.
For this reason, i suspect it may yet have potential for an OB exploit..
I had a try today, ended up spending hours on a figure '8'-shaped track, the idea being to freely swap the over and under-slung poles, since the net weight of a pole straight up or down is the same regardless of the position of the mass hanging on it. So the plan was to use a horizontal figure-8 track to swap the upper and lower poles for free along the straight, after overbalancing on the opposite corners, and then re-use them to overbalance again...
Unfortunately the poles kept colliding in the center, at the crossover, even tho collisions were disabled and each pole was using two separate tracks! Stymied on that one, hours wasted but still, i have this sneaking suspicion that something about this principle could bring OB a step closer..
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I've been thinking that maybe a couple of inverted 'D'-shaped tracks might have a chance at OB..
So it would look like two D's back-to-back, like a rough circle with a vertical split down the middle.
Radial weight poles, animated by a disc with slot joints as before, riding around the outer semicircle will act as an angular balance beam, rather than a Roberval, and so can overbalance by drawing one mass in on its pole, while the opposite mass is extended.
So it then keels, outputting its GPE, and the poles make a right turn onto the straight section up and down the middle..
And at this point the poles are in Roberval mode, insensitive to the load distribution on the poles... so they're in balance as the previously OB one travels upwards, while the UB one comes downwards...
Then up and around the second corner, back into angular balance mode and OB...
The snag is gonna be those two right angles, both of which are unbalanced lifts. Therefore, the gain margin is any difference that can be scavenged between the mass's change in height via these 90° rotations on entering and leaving the straight, minus the amount of height that can be gained while balanced in Roberval mode.
I had the idea for two inverted D's earlier when trying the figure-8, but didn't get around to trying it out. Something worth coming back to perhaps..
So it would look like two D's back-to-back, like a rough circle with a vertical split down the middle.
Radial weight poles, animated by a disc with slot joints as before, riding around the outer semicircle will act as an angular balance beam, rather than a Roberval, and so can overbalance by drawing one mass in on its pole, while the opposite mass is extended.
So it then keels, outputting its GPE, and the poles make a right turn onto the straight section up and down the middle..
And at this point the poles are in Roberval mode, insensitive to the load distribution on the poles... so they're in balance as the previously OB one travels upwards, while the UB one comes downwards...
Then up and around the second corner, back into angular balance mode and OB...
The snag is gonna be those two right angles, both of which are unbalanced lifts. Therefore, the gain margin is any difference that can be scavenged between the mass's change in height via these 90° rotations on entering and leaving the straight, minus the amount of height that can be gained while balanced in Roberval mode.
I had the idea for two inverted D's earlier when trying the figure-8, but didn't get around to trying it out. Something worth coming back to perhaps..
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Just another quick refresher on why i'm so excited about a damn loss...
It's the specific form of loss - its thermodynamic profile - that makes it special.
It's what's known as a 'non-dissipative loss', the dissipation in question being thermodynamic, ie. heat.
The 2nd law (2LoT) simply states that entropy increases, and when we apply classical conservation of momentum we find that it is conserved in the mass and velocity of the particle motions that are the dissipated heat - so momentum and energy are still conserved by dissipative loss mechanisms. The decrease in entropy is to be found in the fuel source of the energy involved - usually involving breakdown of complex matter into simpler stuff, and the dispersal of the spent energy and momentum to background equilibrium levels.
So, if a mechanism slows due to any form of friction or aerodynamic drag etc., this momentum applied to its immediate environment can be isolated in an insulated box and measured - this is called calorimetry, and by containing all of the energy in an experiment, allows its distributions and totals to be evaluated.
Suffice to say that dissipative losses are of no interest to us.
But non-dissipative losses are something else. Calorimetry will show energy destruction. The losses aren't being converted to low-grade heat. What should normally be a closed system, somehow, isn't..
So they're something to keep an eye out for, as they're exactly one and the same animal as a gain asymmetry - it's simply exactly the same passive time-dependent force factor, but with the direction of the asymmetry reversed; ie. swapping the I/O F*d integral disunity. Bessler's gain principle run in reverse would do exactly what the system above is doing..
The mechanism itself is just frictionless slot joints and pulleys. Air resitance is disabled. Gravity disabled. The 'stator' is a free-floating coaxial counter-rotor, so the system momentum is incontrovertibly isolated and thermodynamically closed to all classical fields.
Yet its momentum and energy are not conserved. And there are no loss mechanisms provided. Where do they go? Does anyone still doubt a simulation can break symmetry?
Easily overlooked, it's a damn loss after all, not least if one's fixated on gains... but to miss it would be to mistake the ass end of a unicorn for a goat..
All of which is moot once you grasp the principle of why this anomaly arises here - the loss is precisely as anticipated in consequence of applying asymmetric inertial accelerations via CoAM to linearly-moving masses instead of just rotating ones.
So we can say definitively where the system momentum and energy went - the linearly-moving masses were subjected to a deceleration that reduced their momentum as a function of their rest mass times their linear velocity, which in turn was caused by perfect conservation of angular momentum as a function of rising MoI and inversely-falling RPM. Ergo, linear momentum wasn't conserved precisely because angular momentum was.
And so we see that momentum isn't conserved precisely because it is.
To put a slightly finer point on it, the laws underpinning classical CoE and CoM apply instantaneously, to the precise circumstances on hand. CoAM can't 'know' that it's also affecting a linearly-moving mass, or that this mass is changing radius without experiencing CF and so wont be repaying the velocity it's taken out. All CoAM knows to do is conserve angular momentum, a purpose it fulfills stoically and unquestioningly. Perfect, to a fault..
And that's why simulation - and basic back-of-fag-packet maths - should always suffice to show a genuine asymmetry - at every single stage in an asymmetric interaction, every component has precisely the right amount of energy and momentum for its given conditions. There is no anomaly, just a passive time-variant force, and the resulting I/O disunity and non-constant system momentum is exclusively a direct consequence of the normal conservation laws doing exactly as they're supposed to.
If my head's on right, then with a little PE management this asymmetry's fully reversible. We can create more momentum than we need to keep retracting the masses at peak CF, accelerating the linearly-moving masses, and likewise raising the system energy. However rising velocity means rising CF, so i'm thinking that a spring-loading centrifugal governor can 'inflate' to absorb momentum while limiting net system velocity and thus CF. In this way we'll always have enough stored KE to retract the masses, hopefully anyway.
Must admit an OB scheme would seem a lot simpler, but it is what it is.. and a genuine non-dissipative loss is something rare and striking - precisely the same animal as a gain, just back-to-front. This is why i regard it as a significant breakthrough, if confirmed. And not least if the further predictions pan out..
It's the specific form of loss - its thermodynamic profile - that makes it special.
It's what's known as a 'non-dissipative loss', the dissipation in question being thermodynamic, ie. heat.
The 2nd law (2LoT) simply states that entropy increases, and when we apply classical conservation of momentum we find that it is conserved in the mass and velocity of the particle motions that are the dissipated heat - so momentum and energy are still conserved by dissipative loss mechanisms. The decrease in entropy is to be found in the fuel source of the energy involved - usually involving breakdown of complex matter into simpler stuff, and the dispersal of the spent energy and momentum to background equilibrium levels.
So, if a mechanism slows due to any form of friction or aerodynamic drag etc., this momentum applied to its immediate environment can be isolated in an insulated box and measured - this is called calorimetry, and by containing all of the energy in an experiment, allows its distributions and totals to be evaluated.
Suffice to say that dissipative losses are of no interest to us.
But non-dissipative losses are something else. Calorimetry will show energy destruction. The losses aren't being converted to low-grade heat. What should normally be a closed system, somehow, isn't..
So they're something to keep an eye out for, as they're exactly one and the same animal as a gain asymmetry - it's simply exactly the same passive time-dependent force factor, but with the direction of the asymmetry reversed; ie. swapping the I/O F*d integral disunity. Bessler's gain principle run in reverse would do exactly what the system above is doing..
The mechanism itself is just frictionless slot joints and pulleys. Air resitance is disabled. Gravity disabled. The 'stator' is a free-floating coaxial counter-rotor, so the system momentum is incontrovertibly isolated and thermodynamically closed to all classical fields.
Yet its momentum and energy are not conserved. And there are no loss mechanisms provided. Where do they go? Does anyone still doubt a simulation can break symmetry?
Easily overlooked, it's a damn loss after all, not least if one's fixated on gains... but to miss it would be to mistake the ass end of a unicorn for a goat..
All of which is moot once you grasp the principle of why this anomaly arises here - the loss is precisely as anticipated in consequence of applying asymmetric inertial accelerations via CoAM to linearly-moving masses instead of just rotating ones.
So we can say definitively where the system momentum and energy went - the linearly-moving masses were subjected to a deceleration that reduced their momentum as a function of their rest mass times their linear velocity, which in turn was caused by perfect conservation of angular momentum as a function of rising MoI and inversely-falling RPM. Ergo, linear momentum wasn't conserved precisely because angular momentum was.
And so we see that momentum isn't conserved precisely because it is.
To put a slightly finer point on it, the laws underpinning classical CoE and CoM apply instantaneously, to the precise circumstances on hand. CoAM can't 'know' that it's also affecting a linearly-moving mass, or that this mass is changing radius without experiencing CF and so wont be repaying the velocity it's taken out. All CoAM knows to do is conserve angular momentum, a purpose it fulfills stoically and unquestioningly. Perfect, to a fault..
And that's why simulation - and basic back-of-fag-packet maths - should always suffice to show a genuine asymmetry - at every single stage in an asymmetric interaction, every component has precisely the right amount of energy and momentum for its given conditions. There is no anomaly, just a passive time-variant force, and the resulting I/O disunity and non-constant system momentum is exclusively a direct consequence of the normal conservation laws doing exactly as they're supposed to.
If my head's on right, then with a little PE management this asymmetry's fully reversible. We can create more momentum than we need to keep retracting the masses at peak CF, accelerating the linearly-moving masses, and likewise raising the system energy. However rising velocity means rising CF, so i'm thinking that a spring-loading centrifugal governor can 'inflate' to absorb momentum while limiting net system velocity and thus CF. In this way we'll always have enough stored KE to retract the masses, hopefully anyway.
Must admit an OB scheme would seem a lot simpler, but it is what it is.. and a genuine non-dissipative loss is something rare and striking - precisely the same animal as a gain, just back-to-front. This is why i regard it as a significant breakthrough, if confirmed. And not least if the further predictions pan out..
re: Flippin' Flywheels
L-o-n-g time ago I did a series of physical experiments that showed a pronounced loss of energy that I could not account for.
It bothered me at the time quite a bit but stuck in my memory for the same reasons as stated in your last post .
If energy could dissapear so easily for no apparent reason that I could see then surely it should be possible to 'un-dissapear' it and get some more.
The mechanism in question was simple enough. Two pendulums suspended on a disk across its diam of 800mm approx , one at the 3 0 clock position and one at the 9 0 clock position .
The pendulum was approx 250mm long made of wood about 12mm x 4mm with 4 holes drilled in it for attaching an approx 150 Gram lead weight. The four holes or attachment points for the weight were spaced evenly from about 20mm below the pivot point to the end of the pendulum bar .
The pivot point had a polished steel axel of about 2mm diam attaching the pendulum to the ball-bearing mounted disk .
The disk (wheel) with the counterbalanced pendulums with their respective weights mounted at the end of the pendulum bars , was finely balanced .
The wheel was driven by a falling weight on its rim and the number of rotations counted .
The weight was then moved up a notch on the pendulum bars and the driving and counting sequence repeated .
This was done for each position on the bar , finishing up with the weight positioned just 20mm below the pivot .
The results showed a dramatic and consistant difference in the number of turns obtained with the different weight positions .
As far as I can remember there was about 30% less turns obtained when the pendulum was longest (ie weight at approx 250mm from the pivot ) compared to when the weight was at 20mm from the pivot.
My reasoning at the time (and still is ) is that the friction at the pivot was identical in each case and the air friction should only have been very marginally different .Which meant that the loss could only be attributed to the frequency difference of the pendulum in each position .
That in turn said to me that the momentum of the weight was being 'wasted' somehow by the swinging of the mass at the different frequencies .
This energy has to be going somewhere , and I don't think it is friction as we understand it.
Since that time I have had many instances of the same losses occurring with other more complicated systems with the added complication that the losses are different depending on whether the wheel is aligned with or against the direction of the Earths rotation and whether the measurements are done clockwise or anticlockwise .
At the moment I'm pretty convinced that the losses are too high to be a result of the Coriolus Effect which should be in the order of about 1.3% (if I'm estimating right) not in the order of 20 to 30 % which I'm finding is typical .
These differences can be seen with any mechanism that involves changes of momentum (any changes of momentum ! ) in a rotary system .
And to complicate it even some more , the losses appear to be time dependant - ie they appear to fluctuate over the 24 hour day and from week to week .
It appears to me ( and it's driving me nuts) that the more sensitive your measurements become the more inconsistancies you find with supposedly simple systems which should do more like the textbooks say they should .
Wherever this energy is going , and so far I find it always seems to be going and not coming , it makes me feel that there must be a lot of it there ! - and I wouldn't mind getting some of it back !
It bothered me at the time quite a bit but stuck in my memory for the same reasons as stated in your last post .
If energy could dissapear so easily for no apparent reason that I could see then surely it should be possible to 'un-dissapear' it and get some more.
The mechanism in question was simple enough. Two pendulums suspended on a disk across its diam of 800mm approx , one at the 3 0 clock position and one at the 9 0 clock position .
The pendulum was approx 250mm long made of wood about 12mm x 4mm with 4 holes drilled in it for attaching an approx 150 Gram lead weight. The four holes or attachment points for the weight were spaced evenly from about 20mm below the pivot point to the end of the pendulum bar .
The pivot point had a polished steel axel of about 2mm diam attaching the pendulum to the ball-bearing mounted disk .
The disk (wheel) with the counterbalanced pendulums with their respective weights mounted at the end of the pendulum bars , was finely balanced .
The wheel was driven by a falling weight on its rim and the number of rotations counted .
The weight was then moved up a notch on the pendulum bars and the driving and counting sequence repeated .
This was done for each position on the bar , finishing up with the weight positioned just 20mm below the pivot .
The results showed a dramatic and consistant difference in the number of turns obtained with the different weight positions .
As far as I can remember there was about 30% less turns obtained when the pendulum was longest (ie weight at approx 250mm from the pivot ) compared to when the weight was at 20mm from the pivot.
My reasoning at the time (and still is ) is that the friction at the pivot was identical in each case and the air friction should only have been very marginally different .Which meant that the loss could only be attributed to the frequency difference of the pendulum in each position .
That in turn said to me that the momentum of the weight was being 'wasted' somehow by the swinging of the mass at the different frequencies .
This energy has to be going somewhere , and I don't think it is friction as we understand it.
Since that time I have had many instances of the same losses occurring with other more complicated systems with the added complication that the losses are different depending on whether the wheel is aligned with or against the direction of the Earths rotation and whether the measurements are done clockwise or anticlockwise .
At the moment I'm pretty convinced that the losses are too high to be a result of the Coriolus Effect which should be in the order of about 1.3% (if I'm estimating right) not in the order of 20 to 30 % which I'm finding is typical .
These differences can be seen with any mechanism that involves changes of momentum (any changes of momentum ! ) in a rotary system .
And to complicate it even some more , the losses appear to be time dependant - ie they appear to fluctuate over the 24 hour day and from week to week .
It appears to me ( and it's driving me nuts) that the more sensitive your measurements become the more inconsistancies you find with supposedly simple systems which should do more like the textbooks say they should .
Wherever this energy is going , and so far I find it always seems to be going and not coming , it makes me feel that there must be a lot of it there ! - and I wouldn't mind getting some of it back !
Have had the solution to Bessler's Wheel approximately monthly for over 30 years ! But next month is "The One" !
re: Flippin' Flywheels
If I may recommend an approach?
When doing simulations try running different versions.
These versions should have small differences.
If the simulations supply large differences in the results
then you know the simulation needs refining.
This is used by weather forecaster whether they are required or not.
About 5 I believe; this allows the forecaster to judge certainty
that the system being modelled is not in a region of chaos.
When doing simulations try running different versions.
These versions should have small differences.
If the simulations supply large differences in the results
then you know the simulation needs refining.
This is used by weather forecaster whether they are required or not.
About 5 I believe; this allows the forecaster to judge certainty
that the system being modelled is not in a region of chaos.
re: Flippin' Flywheels
Yeah agor .. we always try to simplify a sim (down to absolute basics i.e. least complexity to function what you are testing for). Change out parts for an alternative way as a cross reference etc.
I tested Mr V's last two sims. The first does not lose Total System KE i.e. it remains the same over time - that was with the background given a starting rpm.
The second sim did not behave this way - it quickly lost System KE, depleting over time - that meant it lost Angular Momentum as I think Mr V said.
Here's how to measure the system (all parts) Kinetic Energy.
Open an Output for say Time (measure time)
Open the properties of this Output
In y2 (below first Output) give it a name (such as Sys KE) - then in the field adjacent enter the formula Kinetic()
That's it - the Output for Time will also report Output for total system KE.
You can see if it is decreasing, staying the same, or increasing, and form a hypothesis about why so.
In Mr V's case slots etc have no frictions, air friction are off, and I think he said gravity was off. So where are the losses coming from ?
I tested Mr V's last two sims. The first does not lose Total System KE i.e. it remains the same over time - that was with the background given a starting rpm.
The second sim did not behave this way - it quickly lost System KE, depleting over time - that meant it lost Angular Momentum as I think Mr V said.
Here's how to measure the system (all parts) Kinetic Energy.
Open an Output for say Time (measure time)
Open the properties of this Output
In y2 (below first Output) give it a name (such as Sys KE) - then in the field adjacent enter the formula Kinetic()
That's it - the Output for Time will also report Output for total system KE.
You can see if it is decreasing, staying the same, or increasing, and form a hypothesis about why so.
In Mr V's case slots etc have no frictions, air friction are off, and I think he said gravity was off. So where are the losses coming from ?
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re: Flippin' Flywheels
Here's a simple overview of the next trick we're going to need.
As you'll recall, the proposition is that if we pull the masses inwards, by expending a prepared supply of PE, then CoAM will do its stuff and accelerate the entire mechanism, along with the retracted mass, diligently conserving its own momentum, while inadvertently adding momentum to all the other moving mass, regardless of whether it's also changing radius or not.
So, every time we pull the masses inwards at TDC or BDC, where CF peaks, we are adding momentum to the system.
However, when we re-extend the masses, in preparation to pull them in again, we're doing so without incurring CF - or at least with minimal assistance - and hence not applying the corresponding inertial deceleration we saw demonstrated in the previous experiment.
So when we send the masses back out, we don't decelerate, instead keeping all of the momentum we gained when we pulled them in.
However, all else remaining equal - ie. our masses are already utilising their full radial travel - this constantly-rising system momentum is gonna weigh us down, since if momentum's rising but MoI cannot, velocity must rise...
..and if angular velocity is rising then so is CF. And so we'd be pitting ourselves into an unwinnable race to store ever more PE to retract the masses against ever higher CF, the more momentum and thus speed we gain.
That way, madness lies!
So.. we need a way to bank momentum, keeping it within the system, but without raising our velocity.. Which means we need a flywheel with an ever-increasing MoI.
And as explained already, both CF as a function of radius, and Hookes' law for springs as a function of displacement (in its basic form), scale identically - which beautifully solves our requirements!
And so here below, i've set two small steel masses on a small plastic disc, via radial slot joints.
Then i've connected each sliding mass to the center of the axis by a spring - just leaving the default settings of "K x" and 50 N/m. So now the masses can slide outwards under CF, while loading PE into their respective springs.
Finally a motor is connected to the rotor, applying constant torque, again at the default setting of 1 N-m.
Pay close attention to how the speed of the system evolves as we bank ever-more momentum:
...Thus we have constant acceleration, with constant velocity and thus constant CF!
Thus the unit cost of momentum is no longer subject to the usual half-square accumulator!
The convergence of rising spring tension and CF means we can dump a shed-load of momentum into a fairly modest-sized flywheel!
Accelerating without accelerating, coupled with Conservation of Way Too Much Momentum... dammit this might just be crazy enough to work!!
As you'll recall, the proposition is that if we pull the masses inwards, by expending a prepared supply of PE, then CoAM will do its stuff and accelerate the entire mechanism, along with the retracted mass, diligently conserving its own momentum, while inadvertently adding momentum to all the other moving mass, regardless of whether it's also changing radius or not.
So, every time we pull the masses inwards at TDC or BDC, where CF peaks, we are adding momentum to the system.
However, when we re-extend the masses, in preparation to pull them in again, we're doing so without incurring CF - or at least with minimal assistance - and hence not applying the corresponding inertial deceleration we saw demonstrated in the previous experiment.
So when we send the masses back out, we don't decelerate, instead keeping all of the momentum we gained when we pulled them in.
However, all else remaining equal - ie. our masses are already utilising their full radial travel - this constantly-rising system momentum is gonna weigh us down, since if momentum's rising but MoI cannot, velocity must rise...
..and if angular velocity is rising then so is CF. And so we'd be pitting ourselves into an unwinnable race to store ever more PE to retract the masses against ever higher CF, the more momentum and thus speed we gain.
That way, madness lies!
So.. we need a way to bank momentum, keeping it within the system, but without raising our velocity.. Which means we need a flywheel with an ever-increasing MoI.
And as explained already, both CF as a function of radius, and Hookes' law for springs as a function of displacement (in its basic form), scale identically - which beautifully solves our requirements!
And so here below, i've set two small steel masses on a small plastic disc, via radial slot joints.
Then i've connected each sliding mass to the center of the axis by a spring - just leaving the default settings of "K x" and 50 N/m. So now the masses can slide outwards under CF, while loading PE into their respective springs.
Finally a motor is connected to the rotor, applying constant torque, again at the default setting of 1 N-m.
Pay close attention to how the speed of the system evolves as we bank ever-more momentum:
...Thus we have constant acceleration, with constant velocity and thus constant CF!
Thus the unit cost of momentum is no longer subject to the usual half-square accumulator!
The convergence of rising spring tension and CF means we can dump a shed-load of momentum into a fairly modest-sized flywheel!
Accelerating without accelerating, coupled with Conservation of Way Too Much Momentum... dammit this might just be crazy enough to work!!
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So.. i'm wondering how best to connect this all up..
We need to charge the variable flywheel from the inertial acceleration, while also discharging it to retract the masses that cause the inertial acceleration.
Occam would suggest scaling it up so that we maintain a higher sprung PE in the flywheel than peak CF in the swinging poles.
Also, rigidly fixing it to the main rotor means that the reference frame of the flywheel's momentum remains within the rest frame of the accelerating net system - so the CF in the poles will never be able to catch up with the sprung tension in the flywheel - thus we should always have more PE than we need to retract the masses, even as the system speed and thus CF rises..
Syncing the required actions is gonna be the tricky part - unloading the flywheel's spring to retract the masses at peak CF.
Getting the masses to automatically swap places is a simple job for pulleys, as already demonstrated, so we don't need to worry about how to move masses back out without help from CF - pulling either pair of opposing masses inwards already pulls the other pair outwards, and vice-versa.
So the discharging of the flywheel spring requires only one action, albeit reliably timed.
This in turn swaps the masses' inner / outer positions, adding more momentum without returning it, and accelerating the net system, but also, thus, recharging the flywheel momentum..
And harnessing the sprung PE in the flywheel means that we don't wanna be using too high a gear ratio to spin it up too fast - time's a factor, so we're better off opting for as large a variable flywheel radius we can manage. The greater its radius and the weight of its extending masses, the more CF and thus PE we can harness at lower velocity... and the easier the charging and discharging becomes.
On that point, why stop at one? Why not have one charging while another's discharging? Ie. one variable-MoI flywheel per pair of opposing pole weights..
Gonna go try the 'D' tracks OB concept now..
We need to charge the variable flywheel from the inertial acceleration, while also discharging it to retract the masses that cause the inertial acceleration.
Occam would suggest scaling it up so that we maintain a higher sprung PE in the flywheel than peak CF in the swinging poles.
Also, rigidly fixing it to the main rotor means that the reference frame of the flywheel's momentum remains within the rest frame of the accelerating net system - so the CF in the poles will never be able to catch up with the sprung tension in the flywheel - thus we should always have more PE than we need to retract the masses, even as the system speed and thus CF rises..
Syncing the required actions is gonna be the tricky part - unloading the flywheel's spring to retract the masses at peak CF.
Getting the masses to automatically swap places is a simple job for pulleys, as already demonstrated, so we don't need to worry about how to move masses back out without help from CF - pulling either pair of opposing masses inwards already pulls the other pair outwards, and vice-versa.
So the discharging of the flywheel spring requires only one action, albeit reliably timed.
This in turn swaps the masses' inner / outer positions, adding more momentum without returning it, and accelerating the net system, but also, thus, recharging the flywheel momentum..
And harnessing the sprung PE in the flywheel means that we don't wanna be using too high a gear ratio to spin it up too fast - time's a factor, so we're better off opting for as large a variable flywheel radius we can manage. The greater its radius and the weight of its extending masses, the more CF and thus PE we can harness at lower velocity... and the easier the charging and discharging becomes.
On that point, why stop at one? Why not have one charging while another's discharging? Ie. one variable-MoI flywheel per pair of opposing pole weights..
Gonna go try the 'D' tracks OB concept now..
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Just to clarify my thinking there, the "CF" i'm refering to is that of the weight poles. If the paternoster speed is constant, despite rising momentum, then the CF we need to overcome in the poles also remains constant.Thus we have constant acceleration, with constant velocity and thus constant CF!
Obviously, the CF in the flywheel is converging towards the spring's peak force, that's its whole point - but in so doing, the peak CF on the poles remains constant and thus we always have enough PE with which to retract the masses against it.
Doubt anyone's following too closely here, god knows i can barely keep up meself.. I doubt this D-track idea'll work, but will post the results later..
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Re: re: Flippin' Flywheels
I'd suspect it's grounding somehow - float tests might help, dunno. But you have gravity enabled, whereas i don't. It's just a closed system of moving masses without any collisions, all actions are reciprocal and fully elastic, but not time-symmetrical; the masses are extended under CF, but retracted back to their initial radius without the presence of CF. So extending the masses caused an inertial deceleration due to CoAM, while retracting them did not even invoke CoAM, bypassing it entirely, and so didn't cause the usual acceleration that a reducing MoI ordinarily should. So a closed-loop trajectory from axle to rim and back is not thermodynamically closed, due to CF switching off and on between inbound and outbound legs.Art wrote:L-o-n-g time ago I did a series of physical experiments that showed a pronounced loss of energy that I could not account for.
It bothered me at the time quite a bit but stuck in my memory for the same reasons as stated in your last post .
If energy could dissapear so easily for no apparent reason that I could see then surely it should be possible to 'un-dissapear' it and get some more.
The mechanism in question was simple enough. Two pendulums suspended on a disk across its diam of 800mm approx , one at the 3 0 clock position and one at the 9 0 clock position .
The pendulum was approx 250mm long made of wood about 12mm x 4mm with 4 holes drilled in it for attaching an approx 150 Gram lead weight. The four holes or attachment points for the weight were spaced evenly from about 20mm below the pivot point to the end of the pendulum bar .
The pivot point had a polished steel axel of about 2mm diam attaching the pendulum to the ball-bearing mounted disk .
The disk (wheel) with the counterbalanced pendulums with their respective weights mounted at the end of the pendulum bars , was finely balanced .
The wheel was driven by a falling weight on its rim and the number of rotations counted .
The weight was then moved up a notch on the pendulum bars and the driving and counting sequence repeated .
This was done for each position on the bar , finishing up with the weight positioned just 20mm below the pivot .
The results showed a dramatic and consistant difference in the number of turns obtained with the different weight positions .
As far as I can remember there was about 30% less turns obtained when the pendulum was longest (ie weight at approx 250mm from the pivot ) compared to when the weight was at 20mm from the pivot.
My reasoning at the time (and still is ) is that the friction at the pivot was identical in each case and the air friction should only have been very marginally different .Which meant that the loss could only be attributed to the frequency difference of the pendulum in each position .
That in turn said to me that the momentum of the weight was being 'wasted' somehow by the swinging of the mass at the different frequencies .
This energy has to be going somewhere , and I don't think it is friction as we understand it.
Since that time I have had many instances of the same losses occurring with other more complicated systems with the added complication that the losses are different depending on whether the wheel is aligned with or against the direction of the Earths rotation and whether the measurements are done clockwise or anticlockwise .
At the moment I'm pretty convinced that the losses are too high to be a result of the Coriolus Effect which should be in the order of about 1.3% (if I'm estimating right) not in the order of 20 to 30 % which I'm finding is typical .
These differences can be seen with any mechanism that involves changes of momentum (any changes of momentum ! ) in a rotary system .
And to complicate it even some more , the losses appear to be time dependant - ie they appear to fluctuate over the 24 hour day and from week to week .
It appears to me ( and it's driving me nuts) that the more sensitive your measurements become the more inconsistancies you find with supposedly simple systems which should do more like the textbooks say they should .
Wherever this energy is going , and so far I find it always seems to be going and not coming , it makes me feel that there must be a lot of it there ! - and I wouldn't mind getting some of it back !
So we know exactly where the losses went - in effect, we're using the ice-skater effect to decelerate when we extend our limbs, without the corresponding acceleration when we draw them back in. And this is predicted from first principles, not some mysterious anomaly.
Still, it's a profoundly challenging finding - almost anybody who knew what they were talking about would refuse to believe this result. Even understanding precisely how and why it arises, i'm pinching myself wondering if there could be some overlooked entropic loss mechanism. But even if there was, the plots clearly show the system decelerates each time a mass in flung outwards, precisely as CoAM predicts it should. So the momentum and energy aren't going anywhere they shouldn't. Nothing's out of bounds. No unbalanced forces are applied to the axle. In fact, no axle is even necessary - it works exactly as seen above when simply floating in free space! A free-floating rotating system that destroys its own momentum!
Thanks for the inspiration, as i just tried the float test while typing this, and it still works exactly as before. Just incredible. No one could, would or should believe this result if you tried telling them about it. You'd be quickly banned on most physics forums, and trolled to pieces anywhere else..
re: Flippin' Flywheels
Hi MrVibrating,
You are doing a great work and do have great ideas, keep it up!
You might be interested about one of my old designs, I called "fan wheel test" at the time:
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... c&start=15
Essentially, you have created a centrifugal brake. The opposite of that would be presumably a motor.
Attached is in effect a similar version I designed years ago, perhaps it can help at something. Cheers! :)
Edit: Or CoAM brake if you prefer. Your analysis is correct, the mass flying out on high speed decelerates the system much more than the other mass can accelerate while being retracted on low speed. Therefore the slowing/braking effect...
You are doing a great work and do have great ideas, keep it up!
You might be interested about one of my old designs, I called "fan wheel test" at the time:
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... c&start=15
Essentially, you have created a centrifugal brake. The opposite of that would be presumably a motor.
Attached is in effect a similar version I designed years ago, perhaps it can help at something. Cheers! :)
Edit: Or CoAM brake if you prefer. Your analysis is correct, the mass flying out on high speed decelerates the system much more than the other mass can accelerate while being retracted on low speed. Therefore the slowing/braking effect...
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Re: re: Flippin' Flywheels
Good advice no doubt, however this ain't exactly dynamical systems theory invoking emergent non-linearities.. rotating motions have CF, linear motions don't.. that's it. It's that simple.agor95 wrote:If I may recommend an approach?
When doing simulations try running different versions.
These versions should have small differences.
If the simulations supply large differences in the results
then you know the simulation needs refining.
This is used by weather forecaster whether they are required or not.
About 5 I believe; this allows the forecaster to judge certainty
that the system being modelled is not in a region of chaos.
The equations of motion are classical, having exact solutions, wherein all initial conditions and subsequent interactions are fully known and individually accounted for - F=MA, so A=M/F and M=F/A, P=MV and AM=MoI*RPM, KE=1/2MV^2 and RKE 1/2MoI*RPM^2. CF/CP=MV^2/R, MoI is just MR^2... whatever the derivations used, these are empirical, causal, and fully deterministic outcomes. We're not getting anywhere near stochastic equations or QM.
At least, not via the front door, anyway. Hopefully the QM folks will be of some help figuring out where such copious amounts of mechanical momentum and energy might be vanishing to..
Hopefully others can replicate this loss tho, perhaps in other sims / fag packets / napkins or whatever.. Marcello could probably sim it on the back of one eyelid, while reading this..
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Re: re: Flippin' Flywheels
Appreciate the tip, still haven't tried using that functionality, will try it in the next round.Fletcher wrote:Yeah agor .. we always try to simplify a sim (down to absolute basics i.e. least complexity to function what you are testing for). Change out parts for an alternative way as a cross reference etc.
I tested Mr V's last two sims. The first does not lose Total System KE i.e. it remains the same over time - that was with the background given a starting rpm.
The second sim did not behave this way - it quickly lost System KE, depleting over time - that meant it lost Angular Momentum as I think Mr V said.
Here's how to measure the system (all parts) Kinetic Energy.
Open an Output for say Time (measure time)
Open the properties of this Output
In y2 (below first Output) give it a name (such as Sys KE) - then in the field adjacent enter the formula Kinetic()
That's it - the Output for Time will also report Output for total system KE.
You can see if it is decreasing, staying the same, or increasing, and form a hypothesis about why so.
In Mr V's case slots etc have no frictions, air friction are off, and I think he said gravity was off. So where are the losses coming from ?
The question of where the energy and momentum go supercedes classical physics - a fact Johannes Andreas Weiss deserves credit for deducing two hundred years before QM was even conceived of - likely an example of Leibniz' influence of reductionist determinism. CoE / CoM are causal, mathematical certainties, and every step in this process is fully contingent upon the conservation laws doing exactly what they're supposed to. So we do not and cannot possess evidence of energy creation or destruction.
We just have an unidentified sink.
Except, it has an identity, we know as "the vacuum". The energy was sunk into the Higgs field.
Classical physics has its limits, and we're beyond them. As far as the classical view can say, this appears to be destruction ad nihilo... and its reversal will be creation ex nihilo..
QM however says we're performing unreciprocated work against the vacuum energy, the activity of which is the stuff of the induced inertia that braked the momentum - it didn't stop itself turning, negative torques were applied. Inertial torques, induced within the MoI-varying masses. That force which resists accelerations. Inertia. Mass. The Higgs interaction.
Whatever it is, i hope it enjoys its win, as short-lived and tragically ironic as it seems set to become..