Bessler's Züge - a Train of Thoughts

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Re: re: Bessler's Züge - a Train of Thoughts

Post by ME »

helloha wrote:Just use the image of the wheel diagram and trace the wagons and crosses over it :)
Cool, that's some lightweight flywheel !!
Marchello E.
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re: Bessler's Züge - a Train of Thoughts

Post by ME »

daanopperman wrote:The second paragraph , first sentence, last word ("zugericht´t"), must have something in common with " zuge "
The word you attributed to me ("Zügel") was the one I was thinking of , in Afrikaans it would be " tuig "
(Added some suspected specifics in red..)

I think "zugericht" does not contain the syllable "zug": zu-ge-richt, or zu-ge-rich-tet.
NL::toe = DE::zu = EN::at, to, by, in, on..

At first I couldn't find the meaning of "zugericht" without the extra ('t), so I tried to stitch it with DE::gericht=EN::court,judgement - hence I came up with "reason" or "appoint".

"zugerichtet" is now found to mean: battered, savaged, mangled, scathed, dressed, made ready (NL: toe-getakeld)
Sounds like a violent or active word ('create' sounds too soft for example).

"hingegen, wenn ich zugerichtet Viel Creuze.."
Could translate more correctly to a(version 3):
"However, when I fabricate (/hammer/create/forge/join) many crosses.."
Marchello E.
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Re: re: Bessler's Züge - a Train of Thoughts

Post by helloha »

ME wrote:lightweight flywheel
You just brought up another point.... lightweight

Now look at this clue
The empty wheel was so heavy that it could hardly be lifted to its new bearings.
With the weights it would have needed the Devil to lift it.
To put simply
- with "Gewicht" or weight, the wheel cannot be carried, it's too heavy
- without "Gewicht", the empty wheel although it's heavy, but it can still be lifted/carried
----- that also means with both "Creuze" and "Züge", the wheel is still light enough to be able to carry
----- do remember the wheel is 11-12 foot, and to support the "Gewicht", the structure of wheel must be durable;
----- so to build this "lightweight" wheel is no easy feat

And now bring a question,
which factor of "Gewicht" decides the heaviness of the wheel (or which is the deciding factor)
(1) the mass, or
(2) the number ?
‘If you can’t explain it to a 11-year-old, you probably don’t understand it yourself.’
For simplicity is genius.
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re: Bessler's Züge - a Train of Thoughts

Post by Andyb »

Just a thought a train runs on rails ,that could be a clue to a light chamber for the weight to rotate in? a train is trapped on the rails ?it's just where i am going at present ,it feels right,Andyb
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Post by ME »

The weight should normally be decided by mass.
But if it was about a pure flywheel-like mass then it would have been best to put it in the construction; now this should be solvable by putting several weights at the rim.

As it's not about the weight but the imbalance, or whatever one makes of those words [uberwicht, uberwucht, ubergewicht], then it's about the number; or smoothness as mentioned in the first post.
For a gravity-induced-overbalanced-wheel it is torque, caused by the amount of imbalance, which should enable acceleration. It's most likely this acceleration will not be a constant for a single mechanism, and as a consequence the rotational velocity will suffer. The more mechanisms, the less wobble in average MoI, the smoother the acceleration, the faster it will rotate.
Or so I think.

A triangle (a couple of them) would have made it sturdier.
So another question, why a cross:
(1) It's for religious reasons, and true seekers "know" the only way is up;
(2) It's totally arbitrary, but rhymed, and teaches us nothing - perhaps only to mock Wagner;
(3) It's the minimum requirement (like 4 corners) to make the rotation self-sustain;
(4) ...
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re: Bessler's Züge - a Train of Thoughts

Post by helloha »

Which factor of "Gewicht" decides the heaviness of the wheel (or which is the deciding factor)
(1) the mass, or
(2) the number ?

First look at this clue, and don't need to concern about the words translation, doesn't involve them
"If I arrange to have just one cross-bar in my machine, it revolves very slowly, just as if it can hardly turn itself at all, but, on the contrary, when I arrange several bars, pulleys and weights, the machine can revolve much faster"
Let's simplify or expand the sentence

(1) One Cross-bar = Wheel revolve very slow = Wheel very weak
(2) Several bars = Wheel revolve much faster = Wheel stronger
(3) Even more bars = Wheel revolve even much faster = Wheel more stronger

(1) Don't know how many pulleys = Wheel revolve very slow = Wheel very weak
(2) Several pulleys = Wheel revolve much faster = Wheel stronger
(3) Even more pulleys = Wheel revolve even much faster = Wheel more stronger

(1) Don't know how many weights = Wheel revolve very slow = Wheel very weak
(2) Several weights = Wheel revolve much faster = Wheel stronger
(3) Even more weights = Wheel revolve even much faster = Wheel more stronger

Basically, the more numbers, the stronger the wheel;
although the clue don't exactly indicate how many pulleys & weights initially, but just assume it's very little.

Also one cross-bar might not indicate there is only one pulley or one weight (or four pulleys or four weights etc).
It's the minimum requirement (like 4 corners) to make the rotation self-sustain
Assuming a situation
- where the role of the cross is simply to support the wheel, then it shouldn't be affected by the exact number of pulleys/weights;
- Only when added too many weights, causing the wheel to become too heavy, and one cross is too weak to sustain the structure of the wheel, then add more crosses.
- In other words, there can have only one cross-bar, but a lot of pulleys/weights.

And as objects like cross-bar, pulley, weight etc... they all have its own mass, so by increasing their numbers, the wheel will also become heavier and heavier

Now look at another clue
A great craftsman would be that man who can "lightly" cause a heavy weight to fly upwards! Who can make a pound-weight rise as 4 ounces fall, or 4 pounds rise as 16 ounces fall. - assuming this is a riddle

If he can sort that out, the motion will perpetuate itself.

But if he can't, then his hard work shall be all in vain. He can rack his brains and work his fingers to the bones with all sorts of ingenious ideas about adding extra weights here and there. The only result will be that his wheel will get heavier and heavier - it would run longer if it were empty!
On first read, it might sound like the wheel should not be heavy,
but when taking into account this information
- the wheel is heavy, especially so with weights

Now let's simplify the sentence
- If he can't crack the riddle, then no matter how much extra weights added, how heavy the wheel will get, it wouldn't work.
- If he can crack the riddle, then the wheel can get heavier and heavier with the extra weights added here and there.

Basically Bessler was expecting the wheel to become heavier and heavier due to the adding of weights, but the condition is the riddle need to be solved first.
‘If you can’t explain it to a 11-year-old, you probably don’t understand it yourself.’
For simplicity is genius.
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re: Bessler's Züge - a Train of Thoughts

Post by ME »

Yes...

Mathematically: once you're able to lift a tiny bit straight up (no matter where on the cycle of the wheel) the Center of Mass will be shifted in the direction of rotation (that's overbalance)

Mass is cumulative and therefore Force and therefore Torque, thus yes: more=better.

For that assumed riddle it's important that the "ounces" should be quarters (perhaps indeed quarters of a pound)
It would indicate the lifting of weights in some ridiculous ratio 1:16, where we would only need 15:16 for example (and a good build)
Marchello E.
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