All the Clues on a Detective’s Poster Board

[AB Hammer]

What I have found interesting is that most all of us have done wheels or designed wheels that match some of the clues but not the correct ones it seems to always turn out. I have gone as far as to read the toy page as if it were hieroglyphics. Looking at the clues in as many ways as I can imagine. Reverse is another way, and was suggested my Ralph several times as I remember.

It is like Bessler is using these clues to misdirect his true meaning.

[daanopperman]

Hi Stewart ,

Hierdie is nie n versoek nie , dit is n uitdaging , aanvaar jy did nie , sal ek later daar op reageer .
Ek glo nie iemand sal dit lees behalwe jy nie , maar net soos in johann se werk is hier ook n versteekte bootskap , vir een van die forum lede , so kom ons noem hom sam , wat ook sy naam is , ek dink hy is niks anders as n puisie op n pommy se poephol nie , en maak hy self n seksuele skuif . Ek dink jy weet wie is die puisie , en wie is die poephol .
Ek het geen behoefte om jou werk af te kraak nie , maar maak beswaar dat jy ander se werk verkleineer , wat dalk net so lank as jy met die vertaling van die stuk besig was . Hulle het die vondasie gele vir almal wat na hulle gekom het .

Ja , hierin mag ook spelfoute wees , want die verdomde spel chekker bly alles wat ek skryf verander om dit in engels the vertaal .

Daan

[Tarsier79]

Daan. He has it, and so do you. I don't think it holds the key, but one of my theories was that he may have used the same principle in his ship (defying gravity) as he used on his wheel.

Like most of his documents, it is mainly just spruking about what he can do. As far as I know, he never actually built his boat, and from the limited and poor translation I did, there was no clue as to its actual workings. I doubt the ship doc holds any real clues, just as I doubt name calling will win you any ground either way.

[agor95]

AB

I agree that the clues can misdirect.

That is why I did not read them until Rocky sent his great post.

I am just seeing if any match.

So the Dog on a chain could have the same purpose as the fellow boards.

Also relate to the herd of cows.

The cross bars in the modelling can become chaotic; if they do not have a hard stop. That is done with the spring being compressed to it's limit.

Bessler used Fellow Boards instead of chains to leash the maximum limit.

The herd of cows is the cross bars springs being slightly different.

So in time there would be clustering and the whole wheel would create a destructive feed back loop. That would rip the wheel from the stand.

P.S. To give respect; I am not a text translator and rely
on the skills of others here.

[agor95]

AB

Yes I was inspired by Ralph to look at the problem in revers.

Also a promise to find a way to lift 4 pounds with 1 pound.

That was in 2008.

[daanopperman]

Hi Tarsier 79 ,

There was no name calling towards Stewart in the last post , well to someone else , Marcello can confirm this .
There was no request directed toward Stewart , but a challenge , that's all , whether he respond , we will see .

The post also had nothing to do with Bessler wheel , or a long shot at a solution ,
I just feel , that Stewart is someone without any proof of academic training as a translater , so the things he spills here is his own opinion of Bessler work .
He claims to have spent many hours doing the translations , but so has the other people whom he now debunk , and calls their work incorrect . Stewart then gives his opinion as to whether I understand or has any comprehension of English , but I can assure all , that although I do not communicate in English frequently , there is very little I have to google to understand anything that he has to offer here .

As to the newly invented life saving ship that Orrfeyrre invented , I can only give my own opinion , (and Stewart may give his without any restrictions or be affraid to do so , no comments shal he recieve but thanks ) .about my ability to translate , although I have never claimed to be the only one to stand correct .

Bessler firstly introduces himself as the Councillor , then gives the directions and location of his residence near the newly built city of Karlshafen .
He also leaves no stone unturned to make every body aware that he is well known amongst the Art loving community .
He reveals that he is heartbroken about the death and destruction and loss of life of people going under in shipwrecks , and the loss of Gold and stuff ( he does not give any description of the stuff though )
He then appeal to the owners of ships and the shipping industry to do something about the ongoing tragedy on the rivers and open sea .
This is where he puts his new invention plans up for offer , by the grace of God , a ship to rescue the victims of this ongoing tragedy .
He names all the material needed for building of his rescue vessel , namely , wood , iron bands , leather , canvass , varnish , pitch ect .
He gives a headcount of the carrying capacity of the ship , and even mentioned that there is accommodation for a commode .
I don't think the vessel was ever built during Bessler life , he had no money himself and no help was ever given .
There is no mention of what would be used as propulsion , and the wheel was never mentioned in the work .
All indications point to a U boat ,

There , I feel much relieved , although you might not be satisfied with the short description or my version .

Daan

[ME]

Reading "Marcello": guess that's my call?

Eeehm...I try: I can neither confirm nor deny the existence of any name-calling but, hypothetically, if such name-calling were to exist.... pff I dunno, figure it out.

I suggest anyone who's slightly interested in Daan's Afrikaans to simply toss his poetry into some online translator thingy. We should not necessarily trust any of those wannabee-translators here (ME included).

It could be that Stewart is more certified than qualified* as a translator, but I notice my own amateur translation attempts seems to agree most with Stewart's attempts - So for better or worse it saves myself a lot of effort to simply follow Stewart. Hence I like the slashed sentences to save me some trips to a dictionary myself in case I run low on trust. And therefore, in case one wonders where no one actually should, according to my current assessment and for the sake of my own laziness, convenience, and happiness I don't actually care speculating about Stewart's academic level...

By the way Daan, I had guessed you hinted at Cornelis Drebbel's submarine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornelis_Drebbel

By the way (no. 2). I liked Rocky's initial idea to get us a Bessler's-clue-list 2.0: hopefully usable as a reference topic - Perhaps I was a bit rude to Sam for his (I think early & offtopic) reinterpretation attempt, I nevertheless guess Sam meant well.. Sorry Sam.



*) I thank Agor for this distinction.

[daanopperman]

Hi Marchello ,

Afrikaans not entirely made up of the German language , Jan v Riebeeck , whom was Dutch , was here long before the Germans fled Europe for religious freedom , hence the Neder Diuts herformde Kerk .The Dutch set up a port for resupplying trade ships rounding the Cape of Good hope in 1652 , then the Germans , the French Huguenots etcetera . There is also Flemish , Malay and Hottentot mixed in a potpourri . The only English word we took into the language was " fuck " which is very versatile , understood worldwide .

You are the most qualified to glimps in there ,

The conservation ship was Bessler tribute to safe life's . I did a translation for a forum member , and while in the process , I lost my operating system on the PC , so not only did l loose the only copy of the manuscript , but all that I have done that far , so I only dotted down the core of the manuscript as Tarsier misunderstood the post in Afrikaans , no idea where he learned the language .

Just to clear up a couple of issue's

Daan .

[daanopperman]

Hi Marchello ,

Afrikaans not entirely made up of the German language , Jan v Riebeeck , whom was Dutch , was here long before the Germans fled Europe for religious freedom , hence the Neder Diuts herformde Kerk .The Dutch set up a port for resupplying trade ships rounding the Cape of Good hope in 1652 , then the Germans , the French Huguenots etcetera . There is also Flemish , Malay and Hottentot mixed in a potpourri . The only English word we took into the language was " fuck " which is very versatile , understood worldwide .

You are the most qualified to glimps in there ,

The conservation ship was Bessler tribute to safe life's . I did a translation for a forum member , and while in the process , I lost my operating system on the PC , so not only did l loose the only copy of the manuscript , but all that I have done that far , so I only dotted down the core of the manuscript as Tarsier misunderstood the post in Afrikaans , no idea where he learned the language .

Just to clear up a couple of issue's

Daan .

[daanopperman]

Oops

[Sam Peppiatt]

To all,
I should probably keep my big mouth shut, but in the interest of enlightenment, Agor has it wrong. It's not how to lift 4 pounds with 1 pound but how to lift 1 pound with 4 pounds. I can't say much because I had it wrong for a whole year. Then I figured it out, only by trial and error, not by natural smartness.

Daan has it right, with high speed motion / or fahren, as Stewart suggested. Bessler said, if you can sort that out you should be well on the way, if not, forget it!

I hope you know by now, that high speed is essential for resetting the sliders.

Sam

[agor95]

I am more than happy to go with what ever the translation states.

Like your self an implementation physical, simulation or Maths is the foundation.

The translation is a guide one hopes.

I would have to go to my back posts to see what I promised in 2008.

Lets look forward.

[sleepy]

I had been working on PM designs for years before I found out about Bessler.Oddly enough,most of my early designs also fit many of Bessler's clues,before I knew of them.Those clues have two inherent problems.
1.Because of the language and the time (1700's) that they were written,we can probably not get an accurate picture of what was being said,as slang and common phrases have changed hundreds of times since then.
2.The current translations and the clues themselves are so vague,that any design you might come up with is going to fit a number of the clues.
I want to believe the answer is somewhere in Bessler's writings,because if we have nothing concrete to stand on,the puzzle of PM can seem overwhelming.But so many amazingly smart people,including many of our members,have been banging away for years on these clues with no real progress,(at least no progress that anyone wants to share).We have looked so deeply for real clues,codes,hidden pictures and meanings,watermarks,cistern covers,bills of lading,etc.If the answer is in there,then we have to admit that every single one of us has missed it.

[Stewart]

Hi Stewart .. I appreciate your efforts to clear up what are essentially muddy waters. I know its not easy at all.
And when your books are ready I'll buy them .. because ..
I'm sooo tired of reading endless 'translations' out there, that I don't know whats up or down, or garbage anymore.

Hi Fletcher

Sorry for the late reply; I've been rushed of my feet with work lately.
Thanks for the kind words and vote of confidence.

As you know, I shared the concerns you've voiced in the quote above and that is what prompted me to take on the challenge of translating all the material myself. I've found the effort was worthwhile for me personally, not only for helping me understand Bessler's wheels better, but also to hear Bessler's story in his own words and clarify its details. I'm fascinated by his life story and the history of that period of time, regardless of whether his wheels were genuine and might be reproduced today.

I'm grateful to John for sharing his translations of Bessler's books, which really helped to solidify my interest in the story. John's AP, although taking some artistic licence in the translations, does generally represent the story well. Although I talk about correcting Mike's translations in places, I certainly don't mean any disrespect, and I have repeatedly acknowledged the good work he has done overall with AP which was a huge and difficult undertaking. I can tell by the way certain parts have been translated that he is indeed very knowledgable in old German. I hope my own version will provide another interesting read, being as close to the original text while still being readable as I think is possible.

I know I don't need to tell you this, but there's a lot more to translating Bessler's written works than just having a knowledge of German vocabulary. First of all, it's important to study the German language (including grammar differences) of the specific time period. There's plenty of reference material including old dictionaries, so that isn't difficult but it can be time consuming. A knowledge of Latin is required (also French) as German writings from that time period would include Latin and other foreign origin words here and there. Take this as an example:

In John's AP translation we read the following:
"I learned all about the preparation of lotions,"

what it actually says is:

"Next he has taught me further,
how one tests urine,"

The Latin word 'lotium' meaning 'urine' was mistranslated. You could also interpret this as 'tastes' urine, as that was the method of testing urine at the time!

It's also critical to only work from the original source documents, as transcriptional errors can cause problems. I do all my own transcriptions from the original source material. As an example you might remember the "warped" or "elongated" boards saga:
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... 0017#50017
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... 1635#51635
Originally described somewhere as 'warped' boards, it was later claimed the translation should be 'elongated'. However, once I saw the original source letter, all became clear:

My transcription from the original letter (the words between the ~ characters were crossed out):
"... In peripheria enim hinc inde affixae erant trabeculae normales, ad quas in circumactione rotae allidi pondera ~manifestum erat~ satis clare percipiebatur. Trabeculas illas per rimam intuens adverti, quamvis e longinquo. ..."

My translation:
"... In fact in the periphery [of the wheel] here and there small 'normal' beams were attached, which on rotation of the wheel ~it was evident~ were quite clearly perceived to be hit by weights. I have noticed those small beams [while] looking through a crack, although from a distance. ..."

There was nothing there about 'warped' boards, and 'elongated' was translated in error because of a transcription error that joined two separate words ('e' and 'longinquo') together, and the actual meaning is 'from a distance'.

It's important to study the subjects Bessler is writing about from other documents written at the same time. In Bessler's case it's obviously science, mechanics etc. There are plenty of documents available in German from that time period, for example Jacob Leupold's works are a must-read. Even Wagner was clueless about certain mechanical terms he hadn't been exposed to, such as 'Zimbel-Gewicht'.
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... 519#126519

John's translator was not sure what the term meant and so ignored the 'Zimbel' part and just translated it as 'weights':
"It revolves, but without other wheels inside or outside, and without weights, wind or springs." John's AP translation, page 295

This lead to confusion because people thought it to be a contradiction. However, when you understand the term to mean weights on a rope that descend under gravity and need to be repeatedly raised again, then the text makes sense and there's no contradiction.

A similar thing happened with the term 'Schniebe-Käulgen' in chapter 46 of AP. John's translator ignored the first word and just translated 'Käulgen' as 'clubs'. However, with a bit of research into German children's games/toys from the time period it was possible to find the term referred to 'marbles' i.e. balls rather than clubs.
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... 495#150495

When you read the original source material you realise certain interesting little details of the story in AP have been missed out of John's translations, such as Bessler begging not to be put in the fools-yoke over the treasure hunting incident, and that the crew of the ship Bessler was on did not throw his notebook and possessions overboard in some seemingly random act of unkindness, but rather that the ship was in danger of sinking and all manner of things were being thrown overboard to try to save the ship while Bessler was ill inside.

It's also important to have an interest and knowledge of history and a general knowledge of things and events from the time period in order to understand certain things. Here's a classic example:

In John's AP translation it says:
"At about this time I began to run short of money, and so
I turned to doctoring again. Thank God I was never
short of a Frenchman or suchlike whose good nature I
was able to influence, with my high-flown style of
speech, to help me broaden my purse in return for
having his fires quenched."

That sounds a bit odd, but when you read exactly what is written coupled with a knowledge of historical medicine it actually makes more sense.

Here's my translation:
.
.
praise God! I was never wanting,
of someone to heal, who was 'a Frenchman'**; &c.
and since my mouth was very highly discreet,
I had many such people laid up,
extinguished their fire in a short space of time,
.
.

When you know that 'frenchman' or 'the french' is a term for the french pox or syphilis, then it makes perfect sense. Bessler had many such patients because he was "very highly discreet" when dealing with this sexually transmitted disease. "extinguished their fire" also makes perfect sense!

[** 'ein Frantzmann' = a Frenchman
'Franzose' = Frenchman
'Franzosen' = the French; the French disease (or venereal disease), the French pox, syphilis

so it says: "of someone to heal, who had the french pox; &c."]

These are just a few examples of what is required to tackle Bessler related writings, and to be honest I think there are few people capable of doing so in a thorough manner. I'm not trying to blow my own trumpet here, but just defending myself against people who say I don't know what I'm doing, I have no experience, or my translations are the worst ever including those of Jim!

I have initially tackled the task of translations for my own benefit and peace of mind, but have shared a lot of information over the years on the forum in order to help others get to the truth and hopefully lead to a working wheel. I personally have nothing to gain from sharing any of my research here, but I found that I couldn't bear the thought of others spending hours contemplating and building things based on complete falsehoods. I've managed to clarify a number of things that are regarded as "clues" on this forum by proving that certain transcriptions or translations were wrong (some of which I've mentioned above). I certainly think I've done my bit to help over the years. It always seems that the ones who criticise or complain the most are those who give the least.

Anyway, it's nice to see a new German speaking member (ovaron) is finally backing up what I've been saying for years. Hopefully we'll eventually eradicate the false "clues" once and for all.

I generally consider the translations that I've provided on the forum as drafts presented in a way to aid clarity and discussion, and I've yet to present the vast amount of work I've put in to translating whole books of Bessler text in a finalised manner. I hope you'll find the finished translations to be useful and enjoyable in and of themselves, but I also plan to have an in depth appendix (or perhaps even separate reference book) to explain details of things discussed like those mentioned earlier.

In the meantime, my private forum here is the best place to go to see my latest translations and information.

Thanks again Fletcher for your continued support, and you'll be receiving a free copy of my first book as soon as it's ready. ;-)

All the best
Stewart

[Stewart]

However, he does have a point about all/the/slashes. I thought I was being helpful by providing several word options to aid understanding with quick draft translations, but apparently it's confusing so I won't bother in future. My final versions for publication don't have those anyway.

He doesn't.
.
.
IOW: I like the slashes . . .

Thanks ME, you're not the only one to have told me that at various times which was the reason I did so in those drafts for discussion.

perhaps you could create two or three complete text variants for readability reasons.

I'll probably try to reduce the slashes as much as possible and just follow up with explanatory comments.

I'm not asking anyone to blindly believe everything I say. I can explain in detail everything I do and back up all translations with the necessary evidence. I welcome anyone to challenge me if you think I'm wrong about something, and if you can prove you are right then I'll correct my work.

Hence my shown attempt. (sorry Fletcher)

In the above case, rhyming is clearly an obstruction.

Thanks for having a look at it. I agree that the poetic nature of Meetsma's testimonial is what makes the translation difficult. I'll discuss it again shortly.

All the best
Stewart