300 Clues on the 300th Anniversary

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Silvertiger
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Post by Silvertiger »

Edison was a greedy selfish prick who tried and lied in every way possible to denounce tesla and his a.c. motor so he could hold onto the power monopoly he had in Manhattan.
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re: 300 Clues on the 300th Anniversary

Post by Furcurequs »

"A little bird told me."

"I heard it through the grape vine."

Where I live, these two statements mean essentially the same thing.

For someone who was not familiar with my language and my culture, though, and who might try to understand these statements based solely upon literal translations of the actual words themselves, he might end up being a bit confused.

What the heck?! Does this guy talk to birds? Does he have a talking parakeet or something? ...and does he try to have discussion sessions with his little bird in his vineyard?! This guy must be nuts! ...and by that I mean totally walnuts!! ...lol (I thought I had just invented "totally walnuts," but an online search shows that even in this I'm not the first.)

Of course, the original statements in question mean that what the speaker had "heard" or was "told" was simply second hand information or "gossip."

So, if we are dealing with writings from other times and places and cultures, a literal translation of just the words themselves could perhaps lead to some very real confusion.

I don't envy, then, those who have to put in considerable time and effort in trying to come up with decent translations of historical (and even "religious") texts so as to try to understand and convey the original meanings.

When it comes to Bessler's stuff, I personally would probably give greater weight to his own Latin translations, then, in which he would have been trying to convey information to an international audience and in the common language used by the scientists and scholars of his day.

I would also suspect that his German writings would have more colloquialisms than the other.

...plus I might give even greater weight to whatever writings he had in his possession that were not published before his death - and regardless of the language he used with them.

...especially if I cared about the "clues."
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re: 300 Clues on the 300th Anniversary

Post by Furcurequs »

Since you're talking Tesla, I thought I would repost the link to a recent PBS documentary on him which is available to watch online:

http://www.pbs.org/video/2365867588/
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Post by Silvertiger »

I saw it after you posted it on another topic. I think it's the third doc on him I've seen lol. He's an inspiration.
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re: 300 Clues on the 300th Anniversary

Post by Sam Peppiatt »

Rocky, Are you there? If so, how or where did you find the Bell Crank? See long lever. You are the only person with that clue.

It's my contention that a bell crank(s) was used to reset the sliders. If so, it's probably the most important clue of all. Do you have any more information about it, or them?

Sam
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re: 300 Clues on the 300th Anniversary

Post by Stewart »

Daan wrote:You have asked me to show proof of your incorrect translations , here is then latest one

In this topic , Jan 10 9 : 05 , the last 2 words in 2nd topic ,

Bessler words , Hohe Fahrt ,

Your words , " shoots / pops up "
Ok, let's clarify the piece of text you're talking about, which is from AP Part I, Chapter XLIII. (43) (page 81)...

.
.
Zur Zeit mag noch ein jedes rahten/
Durch was für wunderbahre Thaten
Diß schwehre nach dem Centro kehrt/
Und jenes in die Höhe fährt. &c.
.
.

Here's my translation of that:

.
.
for the time being may everyone still guess,
through what kind of wonderful actions
this turns heavily towards the centre,
and that shoots up. &c.
.
.
Daan wrote:The true meaning of " Hohe " is high . In Afrikaans it is spelt Hoe , ( pronounced exactly the same , the small h was dropped and a parentheses added to the e which gives the e exclamation ) with the 2 little dots on the e , less it would mean How , that means something at a elevated state .
The word 'Höhe' is a noun. We know that because it is capitalised. All German nouns have a capital first letter. Did you know that? That helps a great deal in translating things accurately.

'Höhe' = height, highness, loftiness, elevation

For some reason you've completely ignored the words "in die" that precede 'Höhe'. You need to translate the phrase "in die Höhe" which means: up, above, upwards. This is a very common phrase that occurs often and it's really surprising you don't know that.

'fährt' is the third person present of the verb 'fahren' which means: to move, to move quickly, to run, to rush, to dart, to slide, to pop, to shoot etc.

It basically refers to a fast movement.

'in die Höhe' is used as an adverb with the verb 'fahren' and so together they are translated as:

'in die Höhe fahren' = a) to ascend, to mount, to rise; b) to rise up, to spring up, to start up, to pop up (abruptly).

This is very straightforward stuff, but please don't take my word for it, look at the attached dictionary entry.
Daan wrote:Where you get shoots / pops up from chap , I have no idea ,
Well this exchange has been a real eye opener for me and explains a lot, and I'm sure everyone can now see, as you put it, you "have no idea". ;-)

Stewart
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re: 300 Clues on the 300th Anniversary

Post by daanopperman »

Hi Stewart ,

Whether you insert " in die " before Hohe does not change the meaning of the word , but the dictionary doesn't tell you this , so you wouldn't know this .
And there you do it again , just to save face , the whole dictionary , so no matter , you have covered the whole kown spectrum .

To make sense of the sentence , you have to take into account what the writer is talking about , is it about a person , a tree or temperature , and all of this will determine which of the words in your / will be appropriate to use .

Since he is talking about " Fahrt " , which is the core of the sentence , "Hohe " is used to supplement the understanding of the use of it in the sentence , to show the degree of " Fahrt " just as one would say " The robbers took off with " high " speed .

" Fahrt " from the word Fahr , which means to travel , like a cruise on a ship , a " Skiff Fahrt " but to Fahr on the water in a ship . So one describe the way of travel , the other describe the travel itself . In this case Bessler is describing the " travel " itself , how it happened , and it happened in " Hohe Fahrt " , As far as I know , you don't have a word for " Fahrt " in English , But as it is not my mother's toung , I could be wrong , and would not be ashamed if so .

There is no mention of any dignitaries in the sentence , nor of any guns , bows , elastic bands , nor of any soda drinks , so remove the highness and all the inappropriate , and if you still don't know , use the only one left .

It seems to me , you educated yourself from the dictionary , for you only know which words is written in capital letters , you sure have discovered a lot , and I can see you are very excited , good for you .

Now go to your translation , and read what you have written there , " It basically refers to Fast Movement " , just as I have been saying from the beginning , , not " shoot or pop up as you stated , I say six , no you say , it is one more than five and one less than seven , your own words .But you claim to have an eye opener , yet you do not remove the eye flaps . Let's hope it is also a eye opener for other people reading this , for anyone whom would dare to say you have made a mistake , you try to discreded before the forum ,

There is much honour in a person when he would admit he was wrong .

Thank you for the invitation to your private forum , when and where did this occur , looking forward to peep in .

Daan .
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Post by Stewart »

Hi Daan
Daan wrote:There is much honour in a person when he would admit he was wrong .
I always admit when I'm wrong. You haven't proved me wrong, but rather I have proved you wrong. I was expecting an apology, but it's now clear you'll go on ranting until you're blue in the face against irrefutable evidence. The German speakers here have and will back me up on this. You've made it clear that whatever language you speak or understand is too distant from Bessler's for you to judge any English translation. I dread to think what sort of gibberish you would have passed on to Tarsier about the ship if you hadn't lost your files! ;-) I'm really sorry that there is an obvious language barrier here, but unless you're willing to learn Bessler's old German we're at an impasse. I have little time as it is to discuss translations without having to keep addressing your unfounded complaints that I'm wrong.

Stewart
Last edited by Stewart on Thu Feb 09, 2017 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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re: 300 Clues on the 300th Anniversary

Post by Sam Peppiatt »

To @,

For what ever it's worth, Bessler seems to be describing a bell crank. The heavy end of it does rotate into the center, as the long end, or step up end, pulls the slider up with fast motion. Which has to happen faster than the wheel is turning.

If I'm right, Stewart's interpretation describes it best.

Sam
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re: 300 Clues on the 300th Anniversary

Post by ovaron »

Hi Stewart,

your translation seems to me very good, however I'm not sure what in this context means heavily. You are right that all nouns in German have a capital first letter.

Diß schwehre nach dem Centro kehrt/

If there is not a typo (in the APO are some), and "schwehre" is an adverb and not a noun, in this context "schwehre" means slow, sluggish. (Heavyly in my understanding means something like powerful, hard or something like this)


Und jenes in die Höhe fährt. &c.

How you said "in die Höhe" is a very common expression in German and just means "up".
"In die Höhe fahren" means "to go up". This can be quick but also slow, you can't decide in this context what he means. If there is a correspondingly expression in English, I don't know.
I also think that he means a quick movement, but it's not sure.
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re: 300 Clues on the 300th Anniversary

Post by Furcurequs »

The following is a search for "höhe fährt" in Google Books before 1750:

https://www.google.com/search?q=%22h%C3 ... 50&tbm=bks

Of the instances I've looked at for which "Höhe" is capitalized in "in die Höhe fährt," it appears that translations such as "moves upward," "rises," "ascends into the heights" all fit pretty well.

It seems to me that Stewart has done his homework.

This looks like a pretty straitforward example from 1740:
Die Etrurier haben schon von dem Bilge das gewußt , was in den neuern Zeiten gewiß ist entdeckt worden , daß er nicht aus den Wolken kömmt , sondern sich nahe bei der Erde entzündet , und von der Erde in die Höhe fährt .
Google translation to English:
The Etrurians have already known of the bilge what has been discovered in modern times, that it does not come out of the clouds, but is kindled near the earth, and rises from the earth.
Dwayne

ETA: In the examples I've seen, I don't think there is any particular implied speed to the motion - but rather only direction.
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re: 300 Clues on the 300th Anniversary

Post by ME »

We have someone calling Bessler a liar (or Bessler made some mistake) because some clue didn't match/fit some current design, and now we someone who thinks all translations are crap because of some misunderstanding?
With all this I'm well aware my English is not a full '10'... but still ?!
:-|

Anyway, for all who likes to know, here is what I make of the current highlight:
  • Bessler/ German
    Zur Zeit mag noch ein jedes rahten/
    Durch was für wunderbahre Thaten
    Diß schwehre nach dem Centro kehrt/
    Und jenes in die Höhe fährt. &c.
For what it's worth, I'll try some Dutch (not Afrikaans):
  • Dutch
    Momenteel is het een ieders vraag
    Door wat voor wonderbaarlijke daden
    Deze massa naar het centrum keert
    En die andere te boven gaat.
A note about: Diß & Jenes
  • NL:: Deze of gene
    DE:: Dieses oder jenes
    EN:: This or that one
    One could infer it doesn't matter which one goes where, or it simply implies two distinct things.
My attempt:
  • English
    Right now it's anyone's guess
    By which marvelous deeds
    this weight turns towards the center
    and [makes] the other go high.
Basically this part tells us: one towards the center, while the other goes up, we still don't know how, but it's amazing;

The probable direction of this Center is not in alignment with the "Höhe"-direction, so I guess it's likely (read: worth considering) this centering weight (or something) travels at the 3- and/or 9-o'clock position...
Agreed with Ovaron, the non-capitalized "schwere" seems to indicate something like 'effort', and not so much a 'weight' or 'mass'... (a spring perhaps ?)

Daan (and others):
  • "in die Höhe fährt" - NL:: in de hoogte gaan, naar boven reizen, omhoog gaan; It's not (NL::vaart) as in (EN::speeds, rushes, flies, flight)
    Nothing alike this possible similarity: [link] "Es vier Pfund hoch vier Viertel schnellt".

    This thing ... Takes the high road; Takes off, Travels up in the air; Is moving up; peaks, rises, climaxes... (plus all what Furcurequs found): this thing is going UP.

    Daan, I don't see where Stewart's translations might be fundamentally wrong; At least it gets the job done, and the message across...
    But as it is not my mother's toung , I could be wrong , and would not be ashamed if so
    I'm not sure your critique helps that job or shows another message. Perhaps you could reconsider.

    My guess what you make of "Und jenes in die Höhe fährt" would actually be like "Und jenes mit der großen Fahrt.". My other option is "mit hohem Tempo". (In my bestest German)
    And in my bestest analysis your confusion is likely (in Dutch::) "Grote snelheid" versus "Hoge snelheid", both meaning "great speed" and "high speed".
    The "core" of that sentence is the noun "Höhe":
    • so it's "[in] the 'High' it goes", and it's not "[where] the 'Speed' is up".
Marchello E.
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re: 300 Clues on the 300th Anniversary

Post by daanopperman »

Hi Stewart ,

Your own words , and I quote , " it basically refers to high speed " .

Now how the hell can you defend your " shoot or pop up " and glorify yourself being correct .

I have never stated anyone's name as to who the ship translation was meant for , the only reason I have mentioned the name Tarsier , was his response to my Afrikaans written post to you , in which he though I was slandering you , which of cause , was directed at someone ells , but I have left out the capitals , so no names would be found , but I do see you had found the pimple on the pommey's are , and that is like a standing wave .
The on!y reason this person asked me to translate , I am sure you know the reason .

I see you have the consent of the forum , so by all means , I will not respond on any of your translations henceforth . Hopefully , 300 years from now someone will ask , Was this Bessler fellow on weeds or something ?

At least one person was a little bit positive towards what I have said .

Daan .
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Post by daanopperman »

Arse
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Post by daanopperman »

On the pommey's of course , the pimple you know .
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