There must be a use for this

[scott]

https://www.facebook.com/sellis/posts/10154759786800379

[Tarsier79]

But you know why it does this. Because it travels faster at the bottom after gaining kinetic energy and losing potential energy. If there was a discrepancy between the two forms of energy, you could use this.

[agor95]

Hi

I have seen this effect in several posts.

The ball rolling the undulating path arrives first.

The output speed is the same KE; however the time is different.

The question that has been with me is; Can the increased speed
be used?

There is a hint of that in a MT drawing.

[raj]

This would work only on a wavering horizontal plane.
It won't loop the loop in a rotational vertical plane.

Raj

[agor95]

Raj

There is truth in what you say and then.

Astral Navigation

To move in front of another orbiting ship you
move lower than it and then return to the original orbit.

To implement this in a rotating frame is were some members look.

Agreed net Kinetic and Potential Energy is zero. in principle

P.S. It is the LAW

[charly2]

It is obvious to me that there is a speed gain o a distance gain, now, is there also a faster upward path for complement the brachistochrone downward path?.
Perhaps at the end this gain can be exchanged for height gain.

[Oystein]

To sort out a problem we must always look at the extremes. In this case, the first extreme is a perfect horizontal plane. (not) moving from A -> B and would take forever. The other extreme is the ultimate slope. And the ultimate slope have to make the ball roll fast from the start (vertical movement (PE--KE).

One horizontal path takes forever, the other path takes a couple of seconds, but it would be wrong to call it a gain. Yes, it is of course a gain in speed. But we have always known that falling in a gravity field makes objects move, and that steeper inclines makes them roll faster..

BUT what we can conclude is that vertical movement in a Gravity field automatically can make an object move fra A-->B and back again. Thus it is very likely that Besslers wheel also needed gravity to move!

[agor95]

@Charly@Oystein

I can but only agree and also feel improved 'brachistochrone' a new word for me.

However Bessler did offer a hint too exploiting this effect.

[Trevor Lyn Whatford]

Hi all,

I have to agree with Tarsier 79, you are only seeing half of the experiment, Why was it cut short? It was cut short because the ball on the slower track would cover a greater distance. This can be seen when you look at the height different at the end of the tracks, the slow tracks bearing travels much higher, than the fast track which is losing height very quickly, speed at the cost of PE.

Could it be used in a rotating reference? I would say yes and No, it could be advantageous to accelerate a weight down a slope to get the weight off the ascending side of a wheel quickly, thus getting the weight onto the descending side faster, and the run up the slope should give a downward thrust to the wheel as well.

But sadly it would keel due to the lose of PE, classic Height for width syndrome.

[agor95]

@Trevor

All you say is true; however could there be a way?

We see here PE converted to KE and back.

We also know an inertial mass conserves it's momentum.

Then there is torque with a mass at different positions from the pivot point.

Then there is structural stress in the rotating frame itself.

All these interactions.

[Trevor Lyn Whatford]

Hi Agor95,

In a rotating reference frame, going from A to B means B is always moving to a lower position, so there will always be more weight in the bottom half of the wheel, so the next rolling weight can only rock the wheel.

Your quote,

All these interactions.

These are all tools for our tool box, but we have to use them on the right designs, so in combination we can get every advantage we can. Our task was never going to be simple, although when finished it may look that way.

[agor95]

Hi Trevor

I can only agree with the truth in your words and my quote.

I am looking at the problem not as a rotating frame exactly circular.

You/we [members] all agree to cause a mass to accelerate we need to
use Potential Energy. That in turn causes rocking to a stop.