Does This Method Have Value?

[eeman]

Hi Walter

I like to try an idea out in WM2d before I build the real thing so that I can optimize the design and save time in the shop. The real test for me will always be the physical model, but the sim's and their signatures can tell a lot of what is happening on the wheel, so I can make adjustments.

As far as perturbing a wheel, the idea is to try to simulate weights either attached to the wheel in whatever manner, either falling or being dropped onto the wheel in various ways in order to develop a signature response that may be a method of reverse engineering the wheel.

Perturbing a system and examining the resultant signature is a proven method of identifying how components within the system may be "wired together", especially when a database of known signatures is established to work from.

I need to do more research on the number of pulses per revolution that were heard by witnesses and some of the RPM's reported. Also the number of weights used for each type.

I may not be making much sense right now but hope to clarify with time in this thread. There is a method to my madness, however deranged it seems right now.

Thanks for your input

Kind Regards, Ernie

[WaltzCee]

I just voted. I think it's useful analysis.

I need to do more research on the number of pulses per revolution that were heard by witnesses and some of the RPM's reported.
The answer is 3 or some multiple of it. Power is transmitted around the world 3 phase. As an EE I know you know that.

Any out of balanced wheel will run, any of the MT's, if their mechanisms had some energy. This is the Gordian knot that needs to be unraveled.

This is the year it's going to happen. Or I quit. As my client is my witness.

[eeman]

Hi Walt

Thank you for the positive vote.

Any out of balanced wheel will run, any of the MT's, if their mechanisms had some energy. This is the Gordian knot that needs to be unraveled.

I quite well understand that point.

Being a very visual person, I'm just trying to provide a "picture" graph of some simple mechanisms that we know would never run on their own.

There are also some mechanisms that might hold more promise than others.

By driving these simple mechanisms with an external source that can resolve (by acting as a transducer) all the torque forces acting on the wheel and present it in a graphical form should lead to a better understanding of what to do, what to not do, and the possible direction that is left.

Regards
Enie

[ME]

I suspect I followed a similar approach when I investigating the needed action of an unknown mechanism for a gravity driven overbalanced wheel.

A torque-signature is only helpful when optimizing some winning mechanism, until then (I think) any kind of behavior should be welcome as long as it produces a net-torque per single rotation.
By the way semantics are often nasty, hence: 'Rotation' could be defined as the ability to return to a mechanical layout equivalent to some previous one...

[Fcdriver]

Next we will attach a one pound weight to the rim of the wheel at the 6:00 position and see the resultant sinusoidal wave plotted as the motor expends torque to lift the weight up the hill (6:00 to 12:00) and then has again expend energy providing torque in the opposite direction in order to maintain the constant speed. This needed to restrain the kinetic energy of the weight as it exerts a torque on the wheel as it falls from 12:00 to 6:00 .

As you can see from the graph, we now have a nice sine wave with equal magnitude of values above and below the zero line.

If we export the data into a spreadsheet, the sum of all values will be zero as expected.

With time you get to be good at eyeballing and summing the torque values above and below the zero line.

The video download:
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/download.php?id=17868

The drawing:
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/download.php?id=17867

This is what I plotted or laid out, but I used a 48 inch wheel, with a 24 inch radius, because my measuring device was not accurate enough, at the smaller radius.

[Fcdriver]

By not attaching the weight to the wheel, but instead apply the force of the wheel dropping, to the direct rotation, you have a almost steady drop Force close the maximum at 3:00! All drop Force has to go to rotation, not just dropping! This is done by changing the angle of attack. The movement fron 3:00 to 6:00 does not accelerate the rotation of the wheel, and is removed, giving the remainder to lifting back to the drop position.

[Fcdriver]

Next we will attach a one pound weight to the rim of the wheel at the 6:00 position and see the resultant sinusoidal wave plotted as the motor expends torque to lift the weight up the hill (6:00 to 12:00) and then has again expend energy providing torque in the opposite direction in order to maintain the constant speed. This needed to restrain the kinetic energy of the weight as it exerts a torque on the wheel as it falls from 12:00 to 6:00 .

As you can see from the graph, we now have a nice sine wave with equal magnitude of values above and below the zero line.

If we export the data into a spreadsheet, the sum of all values will be zero as expected.

With time you get to be good at eyeballing and summing the torque values above and below the zero line.

The video download:
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/download.php?id=17868

The drawing:
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/download.php?id=17867

I would like you to try a analysis of mt-53, not with the ladder devices, but just the levers in the lower right hand corner of the drawings. Where the lever lifting G cause a 50% reduction in the lifting of A. A longer cog from center, causing the lift to be higher, possibly a cam device that lifts slower, and allows a sudden dropping of A.

[eeman]

Hi FcDriver

I would like you to try a analysis of mt-53, not with the ladder devices, but just the levers in the lower right hand corner of the drawings. Where the lever lifting G cause a 50% reduction in the lifting of A. A longer cog from center, causing the lift to be higher, possibly a cam device that lifts slower, and allows a sudden dropping of A.

I took a look at that MT 53 and not sure how I would incorporate it into a wheel. If you have a sketch with your idea in mind, I can give it a try.

Regards,
Ernie

[Fcdriver]

MT-53 is a wheel sketch

[eeman]

Hi Fcdriver

Yes, thanks, I have that drawing, but implementing it without all the feedback levers will only show the torque that is taken from the wheel and will not have the re-applied torque.

Also I'm not sure how that ratchet assembly at the center of the wheel is supposed to work.

But I'll try to put something together, may take a while as I'm on another project right now.

Regards
Ernie

[Fcdriver]

A is a ratching arm that pushes the wheel forward as it drops, but not while lifting.
A torque wrench ratchet, with a secondary lever lift it.
A bicycle rear wheel with a lever attached to the sprocket, with a secondary lever lifting the lever.
There are dozens of simple ways to setup for a test

[Tarsier79]

Fc. If you think it works, why dont you build it?

[Fcdriver]

Maybe I already have

[Tarsier79]

Let me guess.... just needs painting?

[Fcdriver]

Maybe the combination of two different possible 60 degrees of turn, cause a wide variety of results, which have to be covered? Each possible movement in a slightly different direction causes a slightly different result towards rpm vs power, which can be changed slightly by the weight or volume of the wheel.