One more: Much Ado About Nothing!

[raj]

@ Fletcher,

I believe BW.com does not allow AVI files upload.

Raj

[raj]

Dear Fletcher,
I was concentrating so much on seeing your video, which I could not, and did not look closely at your two gif drawings.

You have misunderstood my concept and its drawings.

Your second gif drawing is completely wrong.

I am going to try to explain the motions of the two pendulums as I conceive them, as soon as I can.

Unfortunately my build concept testing, is not planned for now.

Raj

[raj]

Here is my self-explanatory drawings:

N.B: Please re-read my explanations from March 19, on this thread.

Can you see anything in common between my drawings and Besslers' drawings below?

Thank you.

Raj

[Fletcher]

Here is my self-explanatory drawings:

N.B: Please re-read my explanations from March 19, on this thread.

Can you see anything in common between my drawings and Besslers' drawings below?

Thank you.

It's been a long day Raj, so sorry if I don't want to go back and read an old post. Your confirmation or otherwise will do.

I take it from your drawing above that the pendulum pivots are in fact anchored in the background i.e. they don't move in relation to the large wheel ?!

And that the small center wheel that acts as the crank is pinned to the larger circumference wheel so that they act in tandem at the exact same rpm ?! I'm guessing you could have just used a crank pin there.

And that once the large wheel is given a perturbation the system should lose and gain GPE ?!

If so, then there is an obvious likeness to the Bessler drawing you included.

What remains to be seen is why you think it will accelerate away and not slowly die down to position of least GPE as any other complex or simple pendulum would do ?!

I'll see if I can whip it up in sim for you - maybe tomorrow as I've still things to take care of here first.

P.S. if I've missed anything out or got it wrong again just explain the differences in simple terms thanx.

[raj]

My dear Fletcher,
I want you to know how much I appreciate any help you and other forum members can give.

Most of your assessment above are correct.

I believe that a lowest frictional loss rotating FLYWHEEL and swinging pendulums, interchanging their rotational angular momentum and near-linear momentum to and from each other, may have something to do, in my view, for their continued motion.

All rest to be seen.

Raj

[Fletcher]

Ok .. here it is.

Note that I have increased the start force N's to get it rotating in a circle firstly (rather than reversing like a pendulum).

I also turned Air Frictions ON (quite high to see a result) to approximate some Work Done by the system such as air drag and pin frictions (quick and dirty method to create a drag force/external WORK Done etc).

Take a look at the OUTPUT Graph of system wheel RPM - note the trends happening - look at the axis datum's etc to give context to those trends.

Also look at the system CoM symbol that oscillates beneath the Center of Rotation like an ordinary pendulum would.

In Short - the wheel is slowing down !

Because there is no extra energy INPUT each revolution above initial push start.

That's sim world for yuh !

[Fletcher]

P.S. BW.com allows video stream extensions such as .avi files up to 3MB - for some reason they are not loading for me so I can't put them up for you.

[raj]

@ Fletcher,
Thank you.

Sorry, I cannot follow your graphics.

Please, just tell me this:

Is the flywheel rotating as in your first two graphics?
That is the whole wheel system, including the two pendulums with their bobs/weights and their external pivots are all rotating together around the axle, INSTEAD of the pendulums swinging to and fro from their FIX external pivots, in your SIMULATION.

I just cannot understand your simulation.

Raj

[Furcurequs]

Fletcher,

Your .avi files are playing fine for me in my web browser. I'm using SeaMonkey in Linux and, I believe, mplayer is the default media player used for such files .

Maybe when you upload your videos, you could also copy and paste the direct links to them into the text pane. That way if they don't play for you or others due to a browser problem, they could still be easily downloaded and perhaps played in a separate media player.

Dwayne

[raj]

@ Fletcher,

Do your above sim 90 degrees rotations look like the your drawings rotated 90 degrees as shown below?

If you sim does not show the wheel and the pendulums rotating as shown in the drawings below, then you are right in your conclusion.

But I should have further check to come to my conclusion.

Raj

[Fcdriver]

To better understand remove the axle, make it a hollow drum, attach the cord to the outer side of the wheel, instead of towards center. Put a fixed distance between the two weights. The weights will move in a figure eight motion.

[raj]

@ Fcdriver,
Thanks for your suggestion.
Worthwhile trying!

Raj

[Fcdriver]

Looks like you are trying to combine a kids swing, and a seasaw, type motion. Not everything has to rotate with the wheel! It is okay to have stationary points, within a hollow area.

[Fletcher]

@ Fletcher,

Please, just tell me this:

1. Is the flywheel rotating as in your first two graphics?

2. That is the whole wheel system, including the two pendulums with their bobs/weights and their external pivots are all rotating together around the axle, INSTEAD of the pendulums swinging to and fro from their FIX external pivots, in your SIMULATION.

I just cannot understand your simulation.

Raj

Hi Raj .. 1. Yes 2. No it is not like my first attempt where the pendulum pivots were fixed to rotate with the background wheel - in the second iteration the pivots are stationary on the background but the wheel turns with a push start.

This is the basic idea as I see it.

You have two pendulums whose pivots/fulcrums are anchored in the background structure. These pendulums hang down. They are connected by rods to a crank pin located on a larger wheel able to turn.

The wheel is given a starting push which is just enough to get the crank to turn over. The wheel cycles but loses rpm each revolution until it oscillates and eventually stops at its position of least GPE.

[Fletcher]

Fletcher,

Your .avi files are playing fine for me in my web browser. I'm using SeaMonkey in Linux and, I believe, mplayer is the default media player used for such files .

Maybe when you upload your videos, you could also copy and paste the direct links to them into the text pane. That way if they don't play for you or others due to a browser problem, they could still be easily downloaded and perhaps played in a separate media player.

Dwayne

That's interesting Dwayne. I can view my own avi files on my VLC media Player BUT when I load them as attachments to a post in this thread they are just not there to be clicked on and downloaded (hence I can't see them).

BUT apparently they are there (visible) for you to download and view.

Must be my firefox browser but I've never had a problem before so bit of a mystery.

Yes, I thought I might have to copy it into some text etc and might try that later if others can't view the avi file to download, and if there is enough interest.

At this point its more important for us all to distill the essence of Raj's idea down to bare basics and simplicity before spending too much time on it.


ETA: Brains still a bit foggy from yesterday. Could you try an upload to a post here my original avi file you've downloaded ? I want to see if it visible for me as a file if someone else posts it up.

Also the imbedded text thing would be useful. Ta.