Mt 20

[john.smith]

Mt 20 can work but not EXACTLY as drawn. Hopefully everyone remembers 3rd grade math because you'll need it. It's all about ratios. The example uses a 3:1 ratio. Hopefully this won't be too complicated for everyone to follow.
Work is measured as mass * distance = work.
When 2 levers drop, if a weight moves from center and drops 5 inches and another weight above it drops 5 inches to center then 2 weights, one at the top and one at the bottom can both be lifted 5 inches each.
What has been over looked with Mt 20 is that if the weights at the top and bottom are both lifted 2 1/2 inches, this is 1/2 of the work the 2 weights moving towards or away from the center are doing will allow for perpetual motion.
This is where we need to do some math. (radius * Pi) * mass = work.
I hope this isn't an over simplification but if the weights at the rim are 3 times further from center than the 2 weights near the center, they will travel 3 times further doing 3 times the work. This means they can be lifted less than what the centered weights are dropping.

* the long levers would need a weightless long lever to move in the opposite way so the weight of the long lever is counter balanced so it averages 0 weight. An example is when a lever drops it has a lever mirroring it's movement with no weight on it.

[justsomeone]

Jim Lingard???

[john.smith]

@All,
It's actually a pretty neat trick in leveraging. The fulcrum moves more than the weight does. And this is where mass times distance = work.
If the fulcrum moves 3 times more than the weight then it needs 1/3 the force.

[justsomeone]

How many user names does this make Jim??? Are you going to behave yourself this time or can we expect the usual personal attacks coming from you?

[Tarsier79]

Liingaard, just leave. You have had too many chances here. It always ends up the same. Also your understanding of leverage is fatally flawed. Your design is useless.

[john.smith]

http://www.woodworkforums.com/f289/bess ... ost2018645

http://www.woodworkforums.com/f289/proj ... eel-213240

[john.smith]

For those who like my building, this will probably be my last build. And do I expect it to work ? I do. There is more than just leverage to this build and if it works it will not be the only thing Bessler discussed. I'll be starting the build after the 1st of the month.
And if all goes well then this build will help me to have the surgery I need because of radiation therapy that I had when I was being treated for cancer. That seems to be about all Bessler's Wheel is good for anymore.

@Those who prefer not to post in here, middle of next month I should have a good start on the build. I think what will help me with this build is the experience I have from my previous builds. This means that how the parts are mated will be more precise and the wheel itself will be more square. This means if something needs to be at an angle of 90° then it will be close to 90°.

The video Gus posted on April 7th shows everything is "square". Kind of what I'm hoping for as far as the wheel and mechanics go.
http://www.woodworkforums.com/f289/proj ... eel-213240

[john.smith]

Since some people seem interested in this thread, there might be 3 different ways that Bessler used to manipulate momentum.
Having the weights doing the lifting at the hub/axle is one way. The attached drawing of Bessler suggests Mt 20 fits Bessler's clue. And with this clue, as 1 weight moves towards the axle another weight moves away from it.
6b. “These come in pairs, such that, as one of them takes up an outer position, the other takes up a position nearer the axle.� AP 291
pairs (n.) two similar things joined together; made up of two parts that are used together
http://besslerwheel.com/forum/viewtopic ... =300+clues

John.Smith

[Fcdriver]

The range of movement will be close, but not enough. If you use a different ratio pulling in than out, it might work. Which out side source would you add?
Pendulum, stompers? Either are enough to give enough movement, by way of a split axle.

[preoccupied]

Mt20 looks a lot like James Lingard

[john.smith]

@All,
This quote of Bessler's > Around the firmly placed horizontal axis is a rotating disc (low or narrow cylinder) which resembles a grindstone. This disc can be called the principle piece of my machine. Accordingly, this wheel consists of an external wheel (or drum) for raising weights which is covered with stretched linen. http://besslerwheel.com/writings/das_triumphans.html< IMO uses the same principle as the pendulum does. And at the same time would probably be easier to build. at the same time the pendulum would be easier to understand.
In http://www.woodworkforums.com/f289/bess ... eel-211527 I explained how the grindstone would work to conserve momentum and possibly angular momentum at the same time. It's catcha nd release emchanism should be much easier to work with than with a pendulum's because it with a wheel a wood dowel can be caught on a ledge and then slid off of it.

edited to change image

[john.smith]

@All,
I'll probably need to build this one first. With the other one a "grindstone" is needed and it is a bit more complex.

edited to add; if this doesn't work then I'll be able to change it's construction to the other design where the weights will get their force from swinging. And at least I'll know this doesn't work.

I did learn a new word and it is antinomy. With this, it will work because of the work the over balanced weight performs and it will not work because the leverage across the axle is the same while the ratio of movement isn't.

[john.smith]

@All,
Once the 2 levers drop lifting the top weight the principle behind the pendulum will raise the bottom weight. To avoid confusion, the black circle is considered where force is calculated from. One reason why is the long levers have their fulcrums there and another is it shows where Conservation of Angular Momentum comes into play.
With the top weight, the work needed to lift it is mass * 9.8 m/s - mv^2/r. This is where demonstrating that the double pendulum concept works would show how this works as well.
I am hoping to start building around the middle of the month and until then will be designing the double pendulum. And with engineering there will be "rules" or specific things that need to be adhered to give this the best chance of working.
And with the antinomy, if the overbalanced weight has insufficient force to accelerate then the wheel won't work.