Theoretical PMM
Moderator: scott
Theoretical PMM
Okay, I will post a drawing of this tomorrow, but I want to throw this idea out there to see if it actually has something to it. This is actually the idea that got me hooked on Bessler and perpetual motion.
Lets imagine a sea that is incredibly deep (somewhere around 60k feet), at the bottom is a closed system that intakes sea water for electrolysis. Attatched to this system is a hollow object that can connect and disconnect to the system through a perfect seal. The object's purpose is to deliver seawater to the closed system. When the object is full of water, it is slightly more dense than the surrounding water. When it empty, the object is much less dense than the surrounding water, causing it to rise to the surface. The object is attatched to a generator by a rope exactly the same density as water. The generator is for the purpose of electrolysis. The hydrogen and oxygen are allowed to flow to the surface through pipes.
The cycle starts at the surface. A small opening in the hollow object lets in sea water, and it sinks to the bottom, until it attatches to the seal, and lets in the seawater into the "closed" system. Air or hydrogen or oxygen from the electrolysis or separate pipe is let into the hollow object to replace the seawater. The hollow object is sealed and allowed to float to the surface with the force of gravity (compared to the amount of water it displaces). When the object has traveled a sufficient distance to electrolyze all of the water it released into the closed electrolysis system, it allows water back in and starts to sink until it reaches the seal again, comopleting the cycle.
This is pretty much a rough idea of it. I know everything is not exactly perfect, and I'm not interested in the fact that the enormous pressure would pretty much crush anything at that depth, or anything like that. This is theoretical,under perfect conditions, with a purpose to ask, "Can we make gravity do work for us?"
The only thing I can think of that would work against this is if the air pressure in the pipes at such a depth would hinder the electrolysis to the point where it would be impossible to create enough energy to turn the water from water to its base components.
I'm sorry if this is too rough to understand, I'll look it over tomorrow after a good night's sleep and try to draw up some pictures for you guys.
Any comments, suggestions, etc are more than welcome.
Lets imagine a sea that is incredibly deep (somewhere around 60k feet), at the bottom is a closed system that intakes sea water for electrolysis. Attatched to this system is a hollow object that can connect and disconnect to the system through a perfect seal. The object's purpose is to deliver seawater to the closed system. When the object is full of water, it is slightly more dense than the surrounding water. When it empty, the object is much less dense than the surrounding water, causing it to rise to the surface. The object is attatched to a generator by a rope exactly the same density as water. The generator is for the purpose of electrolysis. The hydrogen and oxygen are allowed to flow to the surface through pipes.
The cycle starts at the surface. A small opening in the hollow object lets in sea water, and it sinks to the bottom, until it attatches to the seal, and lets in the seawater into the "closed" system. Air or hydrogen or oxygen from the electrolysis or separate pipe is let into the hollow object to replace the seawater. The hollow object is sealed and allowed to float to the surface with the force of gravity (compared to the amount of water it displaces). When the object has traveled a sufficient distance to electrolyze all of the water it released into the closed electrolysis system, it allows water back in and starts to sink until it reaches the seal again, comopleting the cycle.
This is pretty much a rough idea of it. I know everything is not exactly perfect, and I'm not interested in the fact that the enormous pressure would pretty much crush anything at that depth, or anything like that. This is theoretical,under perfect conditions, with a purpose to ask, "Can we make gravity do work for us?"
The only thing I can think of that would work against this is if the air pressure in the pipes at such a depth would hinder the electrolysis to the point where it would be impossible to create enough energy to turn the water from water to its base components.
I'm sorry if this is too rough to understand, I'll look it over tomorrow after a good night's sleep and try to draw up some pictures for you guys.
Any comments, suggestions, etc are more than welcome.
-
- Devotee
- Posts: 1970
- Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2005 8:31 pm
- Location: U.S.A.
re: Theoretical PMM
...I think I saw a SIM on Youtube or someplace like that similiar to what you are describing here...Hmmmm, just how to make that dadgummed seal!
Steve
Steve
Finding the right solution...is usually a function of asking the right questions. -A. Einstein
re: Theoretical PMM
Its kinda funny I was thinking about other ways in which the same principles might work by warming the the water at the bottom, causing it to rise and turn turbines, though I think this probably wouldn't work.
The problem with the bubble gen is that the voltage needed to power electrolysis is directly proportional to the pressure, I don't know why the author said that pressure has relatively no effect on electrolysis. Hence the need for a closed system at the bottom in my idea. It is true, however that you can get more efficiency out of electrolysis by skipping the compression stage of hydrogen through mechanical means, going straight to high pressure electrolysis. I think Mitsubishi has a generator patented for this means. But that doesn't make much difference in this scenario.
A few more points:
If the atmosphere were slightly more dense than oxygen, you could use turbines to create more energy by the rising of the two gases. This could possibly offset or help offset the extra energy needed to electrolyze the water at the increased air pressure.
This model is literaly impossible in our world. There is simply no ocean deep enough. In my calculations the ocean would need to be roughly 55-60k feet deep. However, in a larger world with more influence from gravity and perhaps a deeper sea, it might be.
But, back to the original question. Is there any reason to believe that under the right conditions a model like this could or could not produce excess energy due the the sole influence of gravity?
The problem with the bubble gen is that the voltage needed to power electrolysis is directly proportional to the pressure, I don't know why the author said that pressure has relatively no effect on electrolysis. Hence the need for a closed system at the bottom in my idea. It is true, however that you can get more efficiency out of electrolysis by skipping the compression stage of hydrogen through mechanical means, going straight to high pressure electrolysis. I think Mitsubishi has a generator patented for this means. But that doesn't make much difference in this scenario.
A few more points:
If the atmosphere were slightly more dense than oxygen, you could use turbines to create more energy by the rising of the two gases. This could possibly offset or help offset the extra energy needed to electrolyze the water at the increased air pressure.
This model is literaly impossible in our world. There is simply no ocean deep enough. In my calculations the ocean would need to be roughly 55-60k feet deep. However, in a larger world with more influence from gravity and perhaps a deeper sea, it might be.
But, back to the original question. Is there any reason to believe that under the right conditions a model like this could or could not produce excess energy due the the sole influence of gravity?
Re: re: Theoretical PMM
I have my doubts that the electrodes will be able to produce any gases. Such high pressure will result that bubbles would have difficulties rising to the surface, less to think that water won't flow upwards. Most probably, imho, O2 and H2 will be collected around the electrodes, a sort of huge bubble, causing them to stop electrolysizing sea water. A solution could be to use high pressure tubes (filled with O2 or H2 gas) and slowly get O2 and H2 out of them, but you won't have water flow.
For stirling motors working at such low temperature difference, there is no problem. One can design them to work as low as needed, down to some centidegrees. Though they might become very huge in size.
re: Theoretical PMM
Depends on the pressure which depends on the depth. If you go too deep you will get liquid hydrogen, which will not flow upward. As the hydrogen and oxygen flow up the pipes they will pull water along. This water flow will flush the gases off the electrodes. As the gases flow upward they will expand and help move the water column upward. There will be no problem getting the bubbles to rising to the surface, except that the decompression of the gases with the resulting temperature drop might cause the water to freeze into slush. With properly designed heat exchanging pipes the surounding water would provide enough warming to prevent freezing.cyberdust wrote:I have my doubts that the electrodes will be able to produce any gases.
Water pressure does not affect the mass of gases produced per unit of electricity. It only affects the volume because the gases are compressed.
re: Theoretical PMM
http://230nsc1.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/t ... ctrol.html
Just found this site, helps explain electrolysis a little better.
It shows that Volume and pressure are inversely related.
Just found this site, helps explain electrolysis a little better.
It shows that Volume and pressure are inversely related.
re: Theoretical PMM
Yes, volume and pressure are inverse. Squeeze the volume down and the pressure rises. Also the temperature rises. Release the pressure and the volume expands as the temperature drops. The formulas are in Machinery's Handbook. A given amount of electricity will always produce almost the same given amount of gases. The pressure affects electrolysis very little. Actually it works a little better at higher pressures.
re: Theoretical PMM
I stand corrected. :)
Re: re: Theoretical PMM
You may prove it experinetally and see that it won't happen. Use some meters depth and air. Air glides in-between water, it won't push water upward. In best case water level will rise some millimeters due to other effects), but won't flow. If the pressure is too much, it won't happen neither.jim_mich wrote:As the hydrogen and oxygen flow up the pipes they will pull water along.
re: Theoretical PMM
Cyberdust,
What is the basis for your opinion?
When I had my water well drilled the well drillers used compressed air pumped down the middle of the drill bit to bring water, mud and stone chips up the pipe to the surface. Rising water bubbles make a very good water pump. Sure, some water may flow around down past the air bubbles as they rise but when the bubbles become as big as the pipe diameter then very little water flows down past the rising bubbles. The well reached a depth of close to 90 feet. They had a water trough around the well to catch and measure the water flow. It had a 3 inch overflow hole. The well driller said that when enough water was rising up the well to equal that flowing out of the hole then they considered the well a good one. My well had about four times that flow going over the top of the trough and they said it was the best flowing well they had seen. The water was shooting about 2 or 3 feet out of the top of the well. Also the pumped air started leaking out of the well into the sandstone bedrock and soon we had water and bubbles flowing up out of the ground for about 30 feet off to one side of the well. The well has a 5 inch PVC well casing and the drill pipe was about 1-1/2 to 2 inches diameter so there was about a 1 to 2 inch space between the casing pipe and the drill pipe for the water to rise up through.
Working in reverse the first very high vacuum pumps used mercury pumped into the top of a long pipe. The mercury would have empty bubble spaces that sucked air as they dropped.
Using pipes filled with liquid interspaced with bubbles is a workable way to pump liquids. The pipe diameters must be limited so that bubbles will form to fill the pipe diameter.
What is the basis for your opinion?
When I had my water well drilled the well drillers used compressed air pumped down the middle of the drill bit to bring water, mud and stone chips up the pipe to the surface. Rising water bubbles make a very good water pump. Sure, some water may flow around down past the air bubbles as they rise but when the bubbles become as big as the pipe diameter then very little water flows down past the rising bubbles. The well reached a depth of close to 90 feet. They had a water trough around the well to catch and measure the water flow. It had a 3 inch overflow hole. The well driller said that when enough water was rising up the well to equal that flowing out of the hole then they considered the well a good one. My well had about four times that flow going over the top of the trough and they said it was the best flowing well they had seen. The water was shooting about 2 or 3 feet out of the top of the well. Also the pumped air started leaking out of the well into the sandstone bedrock and soon we had water and bubbles flowing up out of the ground for about 30 feet off to one side of the well. The well has a 5 inch PVC well casing and the drill pipe was about 1-1/2 to 2 inches diameter so there was about a 1 to 2 inch space between the casing pipe and the drill pipe for the water to rise up through.
Working in reverse the first very high vacuum pumps used mercury pumped into the top of a long pipe. The mercury would have empty bubble spaces that sucked air as they dropped.
Using pipes filled with liquid interspaced with bubbles is a workable way to pump liquids. The pipe diameters must be limited so that bubbles will form to fill the pipe diameter.
-
- Addict
- Posts: 2413
- Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:37 am
- Location: costa mesa /CA/US
- Contact:
re: Theoretical PMM
.....and some comments regarding this subject , at :
https://www.quora.com/topic/Perpetual-Motion
https://www.quora.com/Does-this-video-s ... ual-motion
Al_ex
https://www.quora.com/topic/Perpetual-Motion
https://www.quora.com/Does-this-video-s ... ual-motion
Al_ex
Simplicity is the first step to knowledge.