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The secret behind Bessler's wheel...

 
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Fcdriver
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Report Post to Admin

Finally a direction I agree with? The cost of lift, or the energy to lift, is redirected else where, instead of against rotation!
How does the increase in tension of the Atwood string, cause unbalance to stay above the axle?


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preoccupied
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:08 pm    Post subject: re: The secret behind Bessler's wheel... Reply with quote Report Post to Admin

This is a fun topic that you've started here Raj. I liked your original drawing because it looks like something that might have come out of Bessler's wheel. Your other parts of drawings look more Modern.

Raj is the connection on top a pulley or is the string tied there? If there were a gear ratio on the pulley what would happen? I think the string would fall all of the way down on one side but maybe it could catch on a peg or get pulled back the other direction by a new action. If it's pulled back the other direction by a new action it can be on a new separate string. That'll prevent the weight from falling.





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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:04 pm    Post subject: re: The secret behind Bessler's wheel... Reply with quote Report Post to Admin

Roirtie, thank you for clarifying your idea ,i feel you all make some good points but can not see one being able to hide it from observers and from the axis of the wheel but hey maybe there where small pendulums in each section of the wheel, that might do it? i was also thinking maybe it was useful for bio directional wheels ?my general approach is just to make some thing constantly move governing its speed is a bit cart before the horse ,but hey the principle could be right there, but i can not see it ,but it is still today and tomorrow is a new day and another step in evolution, so i will ponder it, thank you for your knowledge and time all ,Andyb



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preoccupied






PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:24 pm    Post subject: Re: re: The secret behind Bessler's wheel... Reply with quote Report Post to Admin

raj wrote:
Bessler has tried to use pendulums in his drawings/concepts more than once:
like in MT76.

In my drawing/concept and in Ed's animation there is visible asymmetry of the two pendulums/bobs motions from the center, during any point in flywheel rotation.

Does this asymmetry help or hinder with Angular Momentum and MoI in the Flywheel?

N.B: We are using a FLYWHEEL that can store energy and release energy whenever possible.

Raj


The strings on one side could be possibly lightened by being tugged up on and using the existing force rotating the wheel. I drew a picture in MS Paint just like the one you drew to share the idea. So if this works what we really should be discussing is whether stealing Gravity for energy is safe. It's probably not. Not even a little bit of stolen gravity is a good idea. This is our soul in the Universe until we get wasteful and have multiple planets to dispose of. I suggest waiting until we have multiple planets or even galaxies to ruin before experimenting with stealing gravity. Better safe than sorry on the fate of the entire human race or all life on Earth dying. There are a lot of dead planets in the Universe. Maybe all life comes to this conclusion and dies for free energy but we can be careful and not make the same mistake by being cautious in advance.





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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Report Post to Admin

Too funny


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raj
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:17 am    Post subject: re: The secret behind Bessler's wheel... Reply with quote Report Post to Admin

I am making minor changes to my current concept:

1. The length of the pendulums.
2. The linkage.

I see these changes as more promising.

Raj





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Ed
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:45 am    Post subject: re: The secret behind Bessler's wheel... Reply with quote Report Post to Admin

Rah, all of these various adjustments to this current concept will not work. You should take a look at MT 59, before you proceed.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:05 am    Post subject: re: The secret behind Bessler's wheel... Reply with quote Report Post to Admin

Raj

As someone who has admired your extradinary enquiry and willingness to share, what has always concerned me is your over-reliance on sketched still-shots of one full cycle.

All though, for the most, the majority of stages drawn may indicate a realistic snapshot, there is invariably just one phase that is not.

As I've said before, if a perfect idealised plain pendulum cannot reset, then the more you add, the further you move away from achieving your goal.

Chris



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raj






PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:20 pm    Post subject: re: The secret behind Bessler's wheel... Reply with quote Report Post to Admin

@ Chris.

Sorry to say this!

I enjoy doing physical test of my concepts, within my LIMITS.

I am always focused on asymmetry of motion, of torque and time in my concepts.

Raj





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ChrisHarper






PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:06 pm    Post subject: re: The secret behind Bessler's wheel... Reply with quote Report Post to Admin

Raj,
There is already much written about a Simple Pendilum vs a Compound / Asymmetric one.

I reiterate the basic truth, which is that if a plain pendulum cannot attain the bob's release height , then a compounded one stands less chance.

Experimentation is certainly admirable, but PE is going down immediately upon release.

Certainly PE spread over TIME will slow the rate of dissipation, but the end result is still zero.

All is not lost though because Pendulums are a useful energy store that can give back when they come together ?

Chris


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raj






PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:57 pm    Post subject: re: The secret behind Bessler's wheel... Reply with quote Report Post to Admin

Let's look at Bessler's wheel drawing and see what's in plain view.
What do we really see?
1. A huge wheel.
2. On narrowest axle.
3. Two long pendulums connected to
4. Very short and thin objects on either side of axle, which most of us are calling ''Cranks''.

We seem to have stop thinking about this drawing and have not tried to find how what we see could have made his wheel work.

And When somebody comes up an idea close to Bessler's drawings, the most common comments are: This is impossible, the wheel cannot reset, no width to height is possible, laws of thermodynamics cannot be broken, the pendulums cannot regain their starting heights etc etc etc,

We might as well close this Besslerwheel forum.

But I can tell that, out of all the concepts and drawings presented on this forum, Bessler's are the best.

And for the first time in my 30+ years of trying, I am pleased to be emulating Bessler's drawings.

Look again at his complete drawing. Everything he had used existed before him: wheel, levers, cranks, pendulums etc. And HIS wheel worked.

In my current concept, I am also using the same items. And without hesitating, the comments are : It won't work.

Well, I am feeling defiant today. MY WHEEL Concept is showing positive signs to be workable.

Just compare Bessler's wheel drawing and my drawings above with the mechanism of the old sewing machines of the 1800s, you will appreciate how Bessler's wheel worked and how MY WHEEL will work:
Using swinging pendulums power as pedal power, treadle mechanism to turn the small wheel, large wheel/ flywheel to control uniform speed/rpm just as used for 100s of years, in the sewing machines since Bessler's time.

The wheel powers one pendulum on the upstroke/swing (action) and the other pendulum powers the wheel on the downstroke/swing, causing assymetry of motion, torque and time, maintaining Angular Momentum and creating MoI for continued rotation.. Ed's animation is a precurser of this likelywood!

Raj


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Fcdriver






PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Report Post to Admin

How are you using the force of loading the pendulum? Does this force lift the center of mass? What are you doing with the force of the dropping pendulum?

Just using these forces towards rotation and against rotation, will do nothing! If you use the force of loading, to lift the center mass, can you also use the drop to also lift the center mass?


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raj






PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:56 pm    Post subject: re: The secret behind Bessler's wheel... Reply with quote Report Post to Admin

Please look at my drawings and my explanations carefully and with interest. You will find your answers.

Initially the whole thing will be at rest, until some one off initial force is given, to get the synchronised motions of the heavy rimmed flywheel and the two pendulums with their bobs/weights, going non-stop.

Because? find out for yourself...
The wheel will begin to rotate in the direction of the initial pull or push force given.
The two pendulums will move separately in separate asymmetric directions, after the initial pull or push force applied.

Therefore there will be three asymmetric directions of the three forces.
All remains now for you to see if the wheel will rotate continuously:
Just work out for yourself, at any given time, which of the three forces acting, in which directions, where and when???
The three separate torques provided by the flywheel and the two pendulums, their combined net torque at any given time, the changing centre of mass, the angular momentum and the changing Moment of Inertia???

Your findings will be the obvious.

Raj


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Ed






PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:40 pm    Post subject: re: The secret behind Bessler's wheel... Reply with quote Report Post to Admin

Raj, I get the sense that you have an idea, contemplate it in your head for some time, then draw it on paper, show it to the forum and ask us questions about it. Finally, at some point you build, and your builds are very nice. However, I donít get the sense that at any point between idea and build, that you actually do any math proofing, simulations, or mockups of any kind. No breaking down of the problem and working it out with all the tools available to our civilization to decide for yourself if an idea will work. Only what knowledge youíve got inside your head at the moment of the idea.

Is this true? Because you say people make quick judgements that an idea wonít work, but many times that is all it takes, plus some quick maths or simulation or spreadsheet work, etc. and you would know an idea doesnít work, without having to waste time further contemplating and then building, only to see a particular idea wonít work in reality. Like this one with the pendulums and cranks and flywheel.

Iím not trying to discourage you, just to help use all the tools we have to help crank through many ideas and filter out the bad ones, without wasting time on builds. If, like others, you like that sort of thing, more power to you, but at some point one inevitable runs out of time or money or patients and itís at that point that it would be nice to not have to build unless absolutely ready.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:13 pm    Post subject: re: The secret behind Bessler's wheel... Reply with quote Report Post to Admin

Raj feel free to tell us why your device won't work mathematically and still try to build it anyways. :3


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