The secret behind Bessler's wheel...

[Gregory]

The scientific world says PMM is impossible and will never work.
The savvy mechanical engineers on this forum say my wheel concept won't work.
So who am I to disagree.

The reason an envisioned PMM is impossible and the reason scientists and educated people says so, is because the inventors of alleged PM machines continuously choose to ignore one or more already known facts about the way Nature works. (and I wrote purposely Nature)
And the important question here is:
How an inventor expect to come up with any new invention, if he/she ignores the way nature works?
Sounds pretty illogical...

So, it looks like the problem is with the thinking process of the inventor himself. If the inventor would choose to learn and gain more and more understanding about nature, then perhaps one day he/she would successfully came up with a new invention or discovery and realize that actually what he/she created is not a PMM, but instead it is some new kind of device which operates on some yet unknown or unutilized aspect of nature.

The only way an invention is possible when the inventor respects how the universe works, and by choosing to work in harmony with nature he/she finally solves a problem which in turn leads to some new, yet unknown device. But as long as the inventor tries to defy how nature works and tries to work against it, no progress will be possible.

PMM is bogus by definition. Even in case some lucky perpetual motionist inventor would invent something workable, there is 100% chance that the device would be actually not a PMM, but some new device/technology instead. So, if someone founds a methode for PMM, it will be called something else, but not a PMM for sure.

Do I stop? No, the wheel search is my daily physical and mental exercise to keep me going.

No, don’t stop. Keep searching if it feels right!
But only do it in the right way. Learn as much as you can and start to work/think in harmony with nature, instead of against it.

[ChrisHarper]

Gregory,

You make some excellent salient points.

The rigid framework of 'nature' and absolute physical laws which govern it, offer a very useful certainty indeed.

Often people seek to circumvent those Laws, rather than work in parallel with them. Nature is a very faithful mistress indeed. She will never lie, deceive nor pander to ego.

Chris

[ME]

Gregory, so much agreed.

Science is all about gaining knowledge in figuring out our environment and (most importantly) attempt to predict future events, it doesn't imply it's complete and all perfect.
Usually basic Physics and Maths are enough to explain why designs balance or will fail to work...
One is free to ignore those principles only figure it out yourself, that's also Science. But then why ask for a prediction?
Because of the circular definitions in Physics (because it's mathematically convenient) there's currently no way out of such loop hole, as the non-existence of Perpetual motion is basically one of its main pillars. Ergo, a solution can never be found within the realm of current Physics.
It's indeed necessary to find a way out of that "box" (You go Raj !)... it doesn't mean that "box" and know Physics is always wrong as most things will still balance and/or seek their local minimum potential.
So I agree with Chris too...

Raj, just use Ed's analysis as an helpful addition: You either agree, or you know the direction of the loophole, or you need to figure it out.
Especially in the case of Perpetual Motion this motto can never be repeated often enough:

• Science can only proof you wrong, only Nature (a physical model) can proof you right.
  
  (shouldn't be a shockingly new insight)

[preoccupied]

I think it's pretty obvious that perpetual motion using gravity is possible but that we are not being clever enough to know how as the local human being population that we are on our planet. The use of the machine could destroy the planet. The energy taken from gravity would change the behavior of our gravity. Maybe we would become lighter or heavier, crushing us or something. Even if the gravity changes and we don't think it's dangerous, it might tilt the planet slightly and throw us off course and into another planet. Stealing gravity might attract asteroids or other planets. What if stealing a small amount of gravity somehow attracts other planets that are super far away, then Johann Bessler might have drawn a large asteroid to hit us or a distant future collision. What if stealing gravity in a galaxy attracts another entire galaxy to collide with our galaxy? That is actually happening. Gregory says that the energy comes from somewhere by nature. Beware the doom of this pursuit. PPM Gravity should not be used to power your electrical needs because it has got an unknown danger on such an important part of life already. I think everything that I mentioned might be true and that it will be basic astronomy physics in the future, when then we would regulate that nobody use gravity for work as a perpetual motion machine if the doom true.

[ME]

The dangers of large scale usage may be unknown; but it shouldn't be much of a problem... initially.

Raising 39 trillion kilograms of water 175 meters above sea level will increase the Earth’s moment of inertia, and thus slow its rotation. However, the impact will be extremely small. NASA scientists calculated the shift of such a mass will increase the length of day by only 0.06 microseconds, and make the Earth only very slightly more round in the middle and more flat on the top. It will also shift the pole position by about two centimeters (0.8 inch). Note that a shift in any object’s mass on the Earth relative to its axis of rotation will change its moment of inertia, although most shifts are too small to be measured (but they can be calculated).�
http://www.physics-astronomy.com/2014/0 ... anged.html

As of your concerns:
The benefit may be that we now have a rough idea how we could solve the predicted heat-death of the universe. This may raise our significance in this universe dramatically (and if true, it still may take a while to have some effects). Even when it implies we need to sacrifice ourselves.
I think the cause is noble.

[raj]

Please read my motto: '' Keep learning till the end''.

Raj

[Gregory]

I think it's pretty obvious that perpetual motion using gravity is possible but that we are not being clever enough to know how as the local human being population that we are on our planet. The use of the machine could destroy the planet. The energy taken from gravity would change the behavior of our gravity. Maybe we would become lighter or heavier, crushing us or something. Even if the gravity changes and we don't think it's dangerous, it might tilt the planet slightly and throw us off course and into another planet. Stealing gravity might attract asteroids or other planets. What if stealing a small amount of gravity somehow attracts other planets that are super far away, then Johann Bessler might have drawn a large asteroid to hit us or a distant future collision. What if stealing gravity in a galaxy attracts another entire galaxy to collide with our galaxy? That is actually happening. Gregory says that the energy comes from somewhere by nature. Beware the doom of this pursuit. PPM Gravity should not be used to power your electrical needs because it has got an unknown danger on such an important part of life already. I think everything that I mentioned might be true and that it will be basic astronomy physics in the future, when then we would regulate that nobody use gravity for work as a perpetual motion machine if the doom true.

You assume that gravity is a source of energy, but it is not even a force in the classical sense. There is no way to steal energy from gravity, that would imply stealing mass from the planet itself in some form (or stealing energy from the vacuum of space). Even if there would be a way to make use of gravity, it is surely not by overbalancing or some kind of clever lifting. When PMM seekers try to come up with a clever methode to lift weights with the help of gravity, they are essentially try to force gravity to break its own rules, to beat itself. It simply can't do that.

There is a simple experiment to test what gravity can and cannot do. One just need a rope or fishing line, house keys and ductape. Tie one end of the rope to the keys with the ductape attach the other end to the ceiling, there is a simple pendulum. Pull it with the keys to get into contact with a wall or some object, then release it. It will swing back to the starting point at maximum, but never above. With this simple experiment one can test certain properties of the gravitational field. And the most important property of the field is that whether it produces an uneven amount of force/work via some direction or loop. But this is not the case. In any closed loop (or symmetrical path) a point mass can travel through the field produces a net zero sum of forces, or exactly zero work done on the mass, regardless of the shape of the path and the physical mechanism used. The experiment with the simple pendulum perfectly illustrates this. It is the property of the gravity field itself, and it can’t be changed by using a different trajectory or another type of mechanism. So, trying to use gravity against itself is not useful at the least, the best it can do is to balace itself out like in the case of an equal lenght/mass seesaw...

Basically, there are only two ways to defeat gravity.
1. Using some kind of space warp (or shield) technology to manipulate the strength or geometry of the field. But that’s not something to be easily done in someones’s basement.
2. To use some external force to help lift some weights for example. But in this case the resultant machine will be not a gravity wheel, but instead it will be „whatever external force� wheel, and gravity can be simply scrapped from its working principles.
After this, the conclusion might be that:
Bessler used some kind of external force (whatever that means really) to power his wheels.
Or he executed one of the most genius hoaxes of his time in multiple occasions.

[ovyyus]

Gravity is the red herring in this mystery because stupidity makes the most noise. With respect.

[ChrisHarper]

Ovvyus,

Your comments are often tinged with palpable anger, sarcasm and resentment!

Curious to understand why this projection ?

Chris.

[ovyyus]

Your imagination might be faulty.

[daanopperman]

Hi Gregory ,

Every pendulum has its own rate of osculation , and it will maintain that frequency whether swinging high or low .
Add a rotating wheel with a crankpin connected to the pendulum and it becomes clear , that a free rotating wheel MUST have the same frequency of rotation as the frequency of the swinging pendulum it is connected to .
Any change in wheel rotation velocity will have a coging effect on the wheel , more so if I the wheel velocity increases , less so if the wheel reduces velocity , just try to stop the wheel at once , not talking about enertia .
Bessler's wheel had a pendulum with extra bar attached , with 2 extra weights on ends .
This bar , inspected closely , will be found to have supports to strengthen the bar , from the bob end to the ends of the bar both sides . This is not merely for show , it is there for a reason , this reason is to support the whole 3 sided construction housing the pendulum .
By decreasing the throw of the crankpin , you are in effect decreasing the free swinging pendulum's movement . This means the pendulum cannot do what it is supposed to do , swing with it's own natural frequency .
If the wheel speed up , the pendulum must also increase in linear velocity , but for it to speed up , it apex position changes with this increase in velocity , but the period of osculation stay's then same , only the arc of movement changes , it is like trying to stop a weight moving to and fro , only difference is , and here is a BIG difference , the pendulum returns with almost no added energy input to the same opposing hight it came from .

To put it more clearly , a pendulum will swing in the same time between 5 and 7 , as it will between 3 and 9 , but if you gag it between 4 and 8 , it will jolt the wheel into smithereens if the bob is heavy enough , and by having the throw of the crankpin at different dimensions , you do exactly this , gag the pendulum .
And as stated previously , once the pendulum gave the jolt , it is free to fall back at no cost .
We know , that a mass with velocity , = larger mass at rest .

Of course , it is not only a wheel with a pendulum or 2 connected to it that will make a ppm , it needs some mechanism to raise some weights or mass inside the wheel coming from the jolt or jerk as our friend will put it , but I am convinced that this is what Bessler have described as his prime mover .

[Trevor Lyn Whatford]

I don't see how using a gravity drive wheel would be any different than using hydro power.

What about all the moving mass that gravity reacts with everyday, like all those moving vehicles, Gravity does it's thing on all moving mass, so how would gravity know it's being used to accelerate a wheel. Gravity is happy to accelerate and slow down the earth every year, and it's a far greater cycle than if every home had a gravity wheel working in it. Say the wheels weighed one ton each, it would be minimal mass compered with the total mass of the earth, and even in a rotating state the Gravity wheels would be adding to the earths mass thus still helping the earths gravity.

[rlortie]

daanopperman wrote:

To put it more clearly , a pendulum will swing in the same time between 5 and 7 , as it will between 3 and 9 , but if you gag it between 4 and 8 , it will jolt the wheel into smithereens if the bob is heavy enough , and by having the throw of the crank-pin at different dimensions , you do exactly this , gag the pendulum .
And as stated previously , once the pendulum gave the jolt , it is free to fall back at no cost .

Maybe that is why springs were installed, kind of like shock absorbers!

[ME]

a free rotating wheel MUST have the same frequency of rotation as the frequency of the swinging pendulum it is connected to

Daan, I doubt that.
See this post on page 2:
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... 045#153045


The frequency of a pendulum is some fraction between the MoI and the distance of the Center of Gravity from its pivot (ideally it's the length or a massless rod with a heavy bob on the other end).

I don't yet know exactly (math-wise) how a wheel changes this frequency, but both the wheel as the pendulum have their own MoI, energies, and frequencies. The shared frequency (because they're connected) will likely depend on each their MoI.
Like when this pendulum is extremely lightweight relative to the wheel it will not have any effect at all and just be pushed away by the wheel no matter how fast and frequent this wheel goes around.

To think about:
It's also possible the frequency only depends on the available energy, so the pendulum only adds to the Wheel-MoI as like some added weight to the rim - which also helps to reduce abrupt changes in velocity.
The pendulum has no way to "regulate" its energy in relation to frequency because the amplitude (which is normally dependent on pendulum-energy yet independent of frequency) is fixed by the way it is connected.
If this is (for the most part) true, then what's that pendulum doing there (in the Merseburg picture)?

[raj]

Thank you Daano!

This is what I call healthy helpful discussion.
Combined brainstorming!!!

Raj