Simple Tests

[john.smith]

@All,
Since torque vs. resistance (negative torque) is the issue, I have designed a simple stand and test to start with. And it's having a weight at 3 o'clock rotate downward to 6 o'clock. This will rotate another weight upward from 6 o'clock to 9 o'clock.
The weights on the 2 arms will be in a "fixed" position. This simply means they will not move unless the arm itself moves. With a 20 inch radius and 12 ounces of weight, that is about the same as 50 cm's and 325 grams. If someone uses the metric system then the results should be similar.
And when the 2 arms (Double Pendulum) rotates with both weights at 20 inches of radius, a drop of 20 inches will have the weight being lifted will be 20 inches minus resistance.
Then when the weight being lifted is moved in 1.5 inches and this test is repeated, it should rise a little higher than 20 inches minus resistance.
Then when the weight being lifted is moved in a total of 3 inches and once again the test is repeated the weight should rise still higher.
It would be at this point that a "grindstone" can be added. This would require having the weights capable of either rolling or in some other way moving inward.
After the 1st of the month I will be able to rent a storage unit to work in. While it might be slow going it will be a start. In the next month or 2 I will be able to buy some cordless tools to do more involved worked.
With the stand, it is pretty much to scale and uses one piece of 1/2 in. x 24 in. x 24 in. plywood. A drill press (bench top) is preferred for drilling holes to keep them aligned but a hand held drill will work.
Since the Double Pendulum will need to swing in a straight line I will show how nylon bushings can be mounted so it will be close enough.

edited to add; all parts for the simple test can probably be made from the one piece of wood.

[john.smith]

With this drawing I added the grindstone. The large diameter red line is close to how large the grindstone would actually be. In Bessler's writings it is 1/2 the diameter of the wheel.

Around the firmly placed horizontal axis is a rotating disc (low or narrow cylinder) which resembles a grindstone. This disc can be called the principle piece of my machine. Accordingly, this wheel consists of an external wheel (or drum) for raising weights which is covered with stretched linen. The base of the cylinder is 12 Rhenish feet in diameter. The height (or thickness) is between 15 and 18 inches. The axle (or shaft) passing through the center is 6 feet long and 8 inches thick cross-sectionally.

http://besslerwheel.com/writings/das_triumphans.html


And this is why it has magical properties when used properly. As the lever rotates 90° from 6 o'clock to 9 o'clock the weight wheel will always be 90° to the axle. And this I think will be what opens everyone's eyes.
I know this has been slow going and no one is probably more frustrated than myself because of this. It is looking like I will be able to start on this at the end of this month. And this is where I am focusing on keeping this as simple as possible. I will try to make it look like more than a low cost build because appearances are important.
By the way, as Bessler said his grindstone did rotate. If it conserves momentum or reduces negative torque then by it rotating it might increase the amount of kinetic energy that it conserves. This would be for after a working principle is demonstrated.
And by keeping things simple this will give everyone a better chance to understand the mechanics better.

p.s., I am doing a silent countdown over the next 3 weeks.

edited to change pics

[john.smith]

This is something that would be designed with the idea of it becoming a wheel. This is because conserving momentum on the retraction of a weight would be 1/2 of the equation. The other 1/2 would be 2 levers dropping and lifting 1 weight upwards. With a wheel the retraction would need to be much more than 1/8th of the radius, maybe 1/4.
This would mean on a 20 inch (50 cm) radius the over balanced weight would need to be retracted 5 inches (12.5 cm's). And this means that the over balanced weight would need to be lifted 5 inches (12.5 cm's) as well.
And this means that the weights on the 2 levers would need to drop about 3 inches (7.5 cm's) to 3.5 inches (8.75 cm's).

[john.smith]

Possibly closer to what I'll be building with only weights labeled A and B being used. it will be expected to rock back and forth in the same way that a pendulum swings back and forth.
The outer circumference of the wheel will be about 27 inches and will use 12 ounce weights. This should allow a 3 inch retraction of weight A to be enough to move the wheel in the expected manner.

[john.smith]

What people will find out about this design is that the spokes are the boards next to the hub. And the rim (ring) is what is on the outside in the end view (the drawing to the right). This is because the "grindstone" (what Bessler called it) will be attached to the stand (will not rotate) and will be positioned so it is next to the spokes. After I am able to start building it and have some of it assembled then it will start to show itself.

edited to add; the picture shows how the "grindstone" will be positioned. This explains why the rim will be off set. Since the "grindstone" will need to be to the right of or below the axle it's size will be limited. The 2nd image shows where using a larger radius/diameter for the "grindstone" moves it to the opposite side of the axle as the weight being retracted. Obviously the retraction line can not move through the axle.

about 10 days to start. will be doing some basic design work until then.

[Fcdriver]

Change from 180 degrees or 90 degrees to 72 degrees you will have one of my builds, one of many! At the time I was figuring 5 or 9 spoke system. I started out shifting 23 lb weights to pairs of 46 each. All hell broke loose trying to time the movements with rpm changes. I might have stayed with this type of design had I only used very light weights.

[john.smith]

What people will find out about this design is that the spokes are the boards next to the hub. And the rim (ring) is what is on the outside in the end view (the drawing to the right). This is because the "grindstone" (what Bessler called it) will be attached to the stand (will not rotate) and will be positioned so it is next to the spokes. After I am able to start building it and have some of it assembled then it will start to show itself.

edited to add; the picture shows how the "grindstone" will be positioned. This explains why the rim will be off set. Since the "grindstone" will need to be to the right of or below the axle it's size will be limited. The 2nd image shows where using a larger radius/diameter for the "grindstone" moves it to the opposite side of the axle as the weight being retracted. Obviously the retraction line can not move through the axle.

about 10 days to start. will be doing some basic design work until then.

@All,
Am trying to find a place so I can build this. I have let one storage rental place know that this could lead my needing space to store research equipment for some atmospheric testing that I would like to do.

[john.smith]

@All,
Sorry about the prolonged absence. Am getting better and have reserved shop space for the 1st of Aug. I did discuss somethings with a friend of mine and with this it is possible someone could build it while I am still building mine. If I am given credit for realizing the design then this isn't a problem because it is Bessler's wheel. And with the design I'll be building it will be showing how Bessler used both Conservation of Momentum and Conservation of Angular Momentum.
This will be an important build because I am expecting it to work. And work well. If it can rotate at 15 to 20 RPM's then I'll be happy with it. There is a lot of expectations with a perpetual wheel and this would help people to not be disappointed by something that rotates at only a few rpm.
I have also simplified the design so it will be inexpensive to build and might only require a tape measure, a compound square, a drill and a jig saw. And clamps of course. I'll also be posting this at woodworkforums.com using metric measurements. With me, I like using SAE to calculate torque and work and for everything else prefer the metric system.
And with this design the grindstone might not be necessary.


http://www.woodworkforums.com/f289/bess ... eel-211527

[john.smith]

When I start my build I'll be posting my work in the wood working forum. It might be that they find it more interesting because it's a wood working project.
www.woodworkforums.com/f289/besslers-wh ... ost2037216

[john.smith]

I'll be starting on it tomorrow. If it takes a month. Things will probably go better once I can get in my own place.

[john.smith]

This video shows how bearings can either be of poor quality or have little resistance to spinning. I have started on my build. It will be slow going.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RepARd6db7c

[john.smith]

I've placed a section from Mt 138 - 141 in my drawing. A weight can be positioned to strike the hub (axle) when both weights swing downward. I may attach my levers in a way that their position on the wheel can be changed. This would easily account for a knocking sound.
The 2 levers can also have their fulcrums positioned halfway between the hub and the outer rim of the wheel on the other side of the hub from their weights.
The latter position will probably allow for a simpler build because of how the lines would need to be routed. And as Mt 138 - 141 shows, when one weight is striking the hub the opposing weight has moved away from it.

[john.smith]

Am hoping to move in a couple of weeks. If so then I'd be able to work on this at home. The basic math is that for every 30 cm of diameter for the grindstone, a retraction of 10 cm's is possible. And if it works the way I believe it does then maybe everyone will understand why it wasn't such an easy build to do.

[john.smith]

@All,
This drawing of Bessler`s shows a pendulum at an angle. To have an idea of how much work it can perform. if a 1 kg weight is swinging at a velocity of 0.1 m/s, is 1 meter from the fulcrum and weighs 1 kg then it has 9.8 n-m`s of torque at it's fulcrum. This limits how much work the pendulum can perform. This why I`ve always have considered how work can be conserved.

[agor95]

Good route of investigation

Using the wheel size; approximately what is the period for the pendulum?
Is it near to assisting a 40 or 26 RPM wheel?