Landgraf Karl von Hessen-Kassel

[ovaron]

Does anyone have a source where one can prove that Landgraf Karl actually saw the mechanism? It is always pointed out that Landgraf Karl of Hesse-Kassel was the only one who actually saw the mechanism. Where are the sources for this? He is the most important witness, for the genuineness
of the Besslers wheel. How is it that there is nowhere to find evidence of this? Is it just hearsay to what is now simply taken as a fact without questioning it? In history, there are enough forgeries that are held as irrefutable facts, which can not be questioned, "because it is an irrefutable fact." I have exactly the same feeling with the statement that Landgraf Karl saw the mechanism. Truth or fiction ?? Who has a source? Where can I see them?

[Fletcher]

Here's a start for you ovaron.

Found over on the wiki pages under 'myths' which is the last place I remember seeing something about it.

Of particular interest are the comments by Bill McMurtry and later John Collins on the matter.

It seems that JC has copies of Karl's diaries and other documentation.

http://www.besslerwheel.com/wiki/index. ... rtal:Myths

[John Collins]

Although I understand that people want proof about the stated facts, having spent almost 50 years in researching the life of Johann Bessler and writing a book in which I put down all the facts I knew could be substantiated it gets a little irritating when people pop up with questions which were answered and verified long ago. Do your own research if you can't accept my own ovaron.

JC

[ovaron]

Thanks Fletcher for the nice answer. It is read in all the papers about the Bessler wheel that Landgraf Karl is the most important witness for the functioning of the wheel because he has supposedly seen the mechanism. However, I have not seen a single document, where Bessler or the Landgraf confirm this. There is always only a hearsay. Even Christian Wolff writes in a letter to Schumacher only that the landgraf should have seen the mechanism. John Collins is annoyed when asked, what I can understand. But who knows where such a document exists? Has anyone here in the forum a copy, or knows where one can see such a document? For me it is THE proof that the wheel was not a fake. However, without such a document I start to doubt.

[ovyyus]

However, I have not seen a single document, where Bessler or the Landgraf confirm this. There is always only a hearsay.

AFAIK, there is no single document, only hearsay.

[John Collins]

I wrote of my annoyance because your question throws doubt on my integrity, but just for the sake of peace I will attempt to post any relevant documents.

Bear in mind that all documents of this nature were handwritten and barely legible, in 18th C German, and around 300 years old. I did not transcribe them into the same 18thC German and neither did I translate them myself, but I trust the one who did. Given that they form the best information available to us today as 'proof' as you put it of what we believe occured.

Hearsay is a strong indication of what happened and there is supporting evidence, such as Bessler's complaint that Karl has not yet paid him his promised fee for allowing him access to the wheel, and similar other pieces which fit together as a jigsaw of proof.

JC

[Nobody]

Hello Ovaron (@all),

isn´t the Carolo-Attestat as well a proof for that question?!

http://www.besslerrad.de/html/carolo.html

With best regards,
Nobody

[John Collins]

Absolutely, Nobody! I forgot such an important dcument.

JC

[Furcurequs]

This may be an English translation of the above - or a portion of it, maybe.

http://orffyre.tripod.com/id28.html#_Ce ... _Landgrave,

[agor95]

@John Collins

I hold your research in high regard.
I believe a person complaining about non-payment; is a good indicator the event happened.

As for the nature of 'facts' one can only build from a foundation of direct common experience; in the now and with the living.

The aim is to make the 'fact' directly and personally true to the reader.

I work towards that aim and with hope the 'fact' will complement your
hard gain research.

Regards

[ovaron]

@ John
It was not my intention to question your integrity. I apologize for that. For the whole story of Bessler, it is crucial for me whether I can still believe in it or not. If it is really such a simple mechanism that every carpenter's apprentice could build, I can not understand why no one has ever come to this. If what Bessler has described in apologia should also be true, the mechanism can not be quite as simple as Karl's statement implies. So I asked for a document that confirms that Karl saw and understood the mechanism. I looked up again yesterday in your book and read the different letters. What really is missing in your book is this letter, in which Bessler complains about not having received the whole amount of Karl. This would also explain why Bessler did not agree to accept Landgraf Karl as a trustee for a deal.
Would be nice if you can publish this letter here.

[ovaron]

@ John
It was not my intention to question your integrity. I apologize for that. For the whole story of Bessler, it is crucial for me whether I can still believe in it or not. If it is really such a simple mechanism that every carpenter's apprentice could build, I can not understand why no one has ever come to this. If what Bessler has described in apologia should also be true, the mechanism can not be quite as simple as Karl's statement implies. So I asked for a document that confirms that Karl saw and understood the mechanism. I looked up again yesterday in your book and read the different letters. What really is missing in your book is this letter, in which Bessler complains about not having received the whole amount of Karl. This would also explain why Bessler did not agree to accept Landgraf Karl as a trustee for a deal.
Would be nice if you can publish this letter here.

[Sam Peppiatt]

ovaron,

Great simplicity is the mark of a good design, and can be the most difficult to imagine. I expect the mechanism looked very simple but, only after the fact, as most things are.

Trying to figure it out inn't-----------------

Sam

[John Collins]

Ovaron I over reacted too quickly. I apologise for being a grumpy old man!

Furcurequs, the website you quoted from, Dr. Ramesh Menaria, takes all his translations from my own publications which I don't mind in the least, as he has always acknowlwedged my efforts in this field.

PS Thanks agor, you are very kind, good luck with your own efforts.

JC

[ovyyus]

Assuming Karl saw and understood Bessler's 'true PM' secret, why didn't he buy it? Karl's private viewing put him in a unique position to make the purchase without risk of deception. Bessler's full asking price would have been small change for Karl, yet Karl made Bessler beg for his viewing payment. What's the catch?