Simple Tests

[john.smith]

@For95,
Thanks. The wheel I"ll be building will be about 75 cm`s in diameter.
I am hoping for about 20 to 30 rpm`s. I know I shouldn't say that but I do like how momentum will be conserved.
Using 1 kg weights if 2 drop 20 cm`s they can lift a 1.5 kg weight 30 cm`s. The opposite weight at 6:00 o`clock will be 60 cm`s from center. Then when the wheel rotates and the weights are at 3:00 o`clock and 9:00 o`clock the 3 o`clock weight will be 60 cm`s from center while the 9:00 o`clock weight will be 30 cm`s from center. That's a lot of over balance.

edited to add; Bessler did say; Around the firmly placed horizontal axis is a rotating disc (low or narrow cylinder) which resembles a grindstone. This disc can be called the principle piece of my machine.

My design has that. Bessler also said; this wheel consists of an external wheel (or drum) for raising weights

My design also includes such a drum.

[Fcdriver]

You may be missing the effect of the impact, of the weights moving in the opposite direction of rotation.

[john.smith]

Fcdriver,,
There is a neat trick to moving the weights. It`s easy enough to say 90 degrees to the axle but as the wheel rotates the retraction line does need to do that. A simpler way to consider it is perpendicular. If one end of the top of a T rotates on the axle then the long part is the retraction line.

edited to add ; if you look at one of my drawings with a disc around the axle, the disc doesn't rotate with the wheel and if this works then it will go from my design to it seriously being considered Bessler`s wheel. I`ll see about making a simulation to show you what I mean.

[Fcdriver]

Yes it seems easy at 0 rpm! It at 20 and then 50 things change!
When you set up to find just how much shifting and movement of the weight, causes how much rotation, you will find a great deal of movement is needed!
What works at a slow rpm does not work at a slightly faster rpm.

[Fcdriver]

Yes I understand the disc, and using the proper angle of attack does help.
Holding a ball against a door jamb, with a pencil, it is much easier if the pencil is perpendicular to the jamb than parallel.
But as you need a series of these because each movement only turns the wheel a limited number of degrees. Each movement of weight does not turn the wheel 90 degrees

[john.smith]

Fcdriver,
The 3 drawings will better illustrate how a weight is retracted. while Bessler said that his disc rotated, I will be keeping it stationary to keep things simple.
As you can see the weight being retracted is always 90° to the axis of the disc's axis or center. I did include in the 3rd illustration what the peacock's tail might have been, a counter balance. There is a trick that can be used to allow the disc to rotate but first this principal needs to be demonstrated.
I may have found a place to move to. If so then in a couple of weeks I might be able to start building again.

p.s., with the suggestion about the peacock's tail, it could easily have been something else that Bessler was referring to, not sure on this one.

edited to correct some things

p.s., anymore I think a properly working wheel needs to be demonstrated. This is one reason why I am not in a hurry to build. And as agor95 asked about speed, that would help to show why what Bessler did was special.

[Fcdriver]

I think you are over estimating the amount, of rotation caused, by the shifting of weights. The shifting of the weights is not going to cause 180 degrees of movement, closer to only 40 degrees. It is the amount of acceleration it provides, while spinning. It does not compare to balance of a stationary object.

[Fcdriver]

Even if you had eight of these, you would be 5 degrees short, for each. You would need nine.

[john.smith]

I think you are over estimating the amount, of rotation caused, by the shifting of weights. The shifting of the weights is not going to cause 180 degrees of movement, closer to only 40 degrees. It is the amount of acceleration it provides, while spinning. It does not compare to balance of a stationary object.

This is where taking the time to do the math helps. That and building.

[john.smith]

I may be moving into my own place next week. If so then I'll be able to start building again. There is one aspect of conservation of angular momentum that I want a definite answer to. Some say it is L = Iw where L is angular momentum, I is a moment of inertia and w is angular velocity.
One thing I'll take the time to observe is if w/.5r = 4w. While this won't change if the build I've been pursuing will work or not but it would have a direct impact on how fast it rotates.

[Fcdriver]

The amount of movement from 9 to center online with radius, equals the degrees turn measurable amount from 3 to 6! Roughly! From 9 to 1/2 r equals just over 22.5 degrees turn

[john.smith]

Fcdriver,
Fcdriver,
Your post makes no sense. 3 to 6 and 9 to 12 will always be 90 degrees regardless of what radius. And as I mentioned I'll also be doing some research on conservation of angular momentum. That is something I'm looking forward to doing.

[john.smith]

I'm going to start on the stand this weekend. I am in my own place now so will be working on it at home. Everything is going to be simplified. If everything works out then later on it can be converted into a wheel.
I should be able to make a lot of progress next week.

edited to add; the "grindstone" will be attached to the stand. Over the weekend I'll post some math about overbalance, work and acceleration. And also the expect amount of linear momentum to be conserved as angular momentum. It's this last part that allows for perpetuallity.
Where I am living now, needless to say I'll be working under much better conditions. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =3&theater it's half the basement :-)

[john.smith]

Hopefully by keeping things simple they'll go better. I found out the bearings that I had bought weren't really bearings so will need to buy new ones. The gap for the wheel needs to be about 5 1/2 inches. Once I make the disc for retracting the weights and have it mounted things will show themselves more.
That's a 12 inch square to give an idea of how tall this build will be. while it will be about 40 inches in diameter i am going to call it a 1 Meter wheel.

[john.smith]

I thought I'd let everyone know that I am still working on it. I have been able to work some (at a job) so have been held up some. This weekend I'll be ordering the lead for the weights as well as new bearings. I'll be mounting the bearings in the stand. I have placed bearings in the hub of the wheel before. This usually depends on the width of the hub. And this means the bearings will be mounted inside the grindstone/disc that I believe Bessler called his principle mechanism. And this is the part where I need to get it right. I think after I have the stand and discs with bearings finished everyone will understand this much better. And with the levers and weights, I think that part will go much more quickly. Anyway I hope so.