Fletcher wrote:That's why the context is important. Did he see a rotating wheel which was then stopped and he shown inside. Or a stationary wheel opened for inspection but not run again after ?
One of the reasons I consider Bill's approach seriously is much more esoteric. It is the theory of synchronicity.
That is in relation to science, where two or more researchers (whether they be mechanics, tinkerers, experimental physicists, mathematicians, or academics) often have the same invention within days of each other, although they are unknown to each other or only have a casual knowledge of each other.
I saw a program months back where PHD's had analysed the occurrence of synchronicity in history and came up with it happening on at least 148 occasions. Much more than coincidence should account for.
Where is Bessler's synchronistic partner in gravity only power ?
But Savery and Newcomem were well at steam power at the same time as Bessler, presumably based in part on Hero's engine from the first century. There's that word 'hero' again (coincidence ?)
What if Bessler was using one of the five elements of spirit, earth, wind, water and fire to make an engine (he tried many of the other elements in MT), but using fire in a different way before the piston operated steam engine had been fully developed or the internal combustion engine ?
I'm just plagiarizing Bill here to a degree. Bill's heat engine solution for a Bessler type wheel is not a genuine piston type but possibly a close forerunner to it.
And what was that one word that could give it all away ? One word that would reveal his secret ! Makes you wonder.
I think if the wheel was rotating then stopped and opened, the prime mover was concealed in that scenario, perhaps in the axle, but it could have been concealed elsewhere. If he was allowed to look over a stationary wheel only, I think in that context the prime mover might have been removed beforehand if necessary.
I don't think Bessler had a synchronistic partner in gravity only power, merely synchronistic peers, each one searching in vain.
I think he harnessed the environment. The frustrating thing about this story is not knowing the conditions of the environment. Was he able to manipulate or control it to some extent for each demonstration? If so, that would be the answer.
That word might be 'toggle'. When a toggle is straight across it's mechanical advantage, (MA), approaches infinity. It would have enough leverage / MA to lift the weights back up, maybe. Like every thing else will just have to try it and see.
Hey thanks Sam .. I'm not sure what a 'toggle' is but I think you are referring to what scissors and storksbill's do. As I understand it they are force multipliers.
The quick way I remember what they're about is that when closed like a > their pointy end is almost at the full extent of its geometrically constrained travel distance. So it almost is a infinitely small force over relatively long distance will will cause an infinitely large force over a very small distance, and visa versa when open.
But as far as I can tell it still obeys the Law of Levers.
For those who might wonder that I appear to periodically bounce around with diametrically opposed ideas and commitments to how Bessler's wheels operated - that is probably right. I try to keep an open mind about what forces and energy Besslers wheels either used or created and where that might come from. That includes a hidden physical power source, use of ambient forces, and just gravity only scenarios.
Each direction has its strength as an argument but conflicts in other ways with either the Bessler story or modern science. It is for each of us to decide what the real rabbit holes and pitfalls potentially await us and whether they are worth the time and effort to explore.
Yes, it's a little bit like a storks bill but not quite. It's usually two links in a more or less straight line. At this point the force is maximum. Or MA as the case may be.
Trying to incorporate this characteristic in some way to lift the weights back up.
No way of knowing what's right. However, I like your description of what has to happen. I'm referring to your class three OOB wheel at wiki. To me, you have it exactly right.
Anyway keep up the good work, Sam
Fletcher wrote:
Hi overon .. its been many years since I last read up on Bessler destroying his wheel after a s'Gravesande inspection, and I have forgotten what s'Gravesande found or speculated on. Obviously Bessler had a fit of pique about something, either something s"Gravesande did without authority or perhaps found ?
And I don't remember Wolff describing the axis as hollow, to the zar ?
Do you mind posting up your references relating to your comments above without me having to search for it all again. They give context and would be helpful if only to set my memory straight again.
6. At present, I do not expect any special results from the machine. The one I saw had very thin journals and the axle was hollow; these two features were contributing to the fast rotation of the wheel, and so to its power when the wheel had to lift something. This would not be an acceptable feature in a wheel that was intended for serious development. Such a thin journal would quickly wear out and such a poor axle would soon break down. Besides, there is considerable difference between a machine that is used continuously for work, and one that is run for a moment or a few minutes to pull or lift something. John Collins, PERPETUAL MOTION - AN ANCIENT MYSTERY SOLVED? page 118
'His Serene Highness the Landgrave, in the presence of the Baron Fischer, Architect to the Emperor, and other persons, ordered at my request, that the machine be dismounted from its supports, and we saw the bearings uncovered. I examined the bearings on which the journals rested and in that examination there did not appear to be the slightest trace of communication with the adjoining room. I remember very distinctly the whole of the circumstances of that examination which put Orffyreus in such a rage with me that, the same day, he broke his machine into pieces, and wrote on the wall that it was the impertinent curiosity of Professor 'sGravesande which was the cause.' John Collins, PERPETUAL MOTION - AN ANCIENT MYSTERY SOLVED? page 152
For me, the only eye-witness of the genuineness of the wheel, Landgraf Karl von Hessen-Cassel becomes more and more dubious. I am sure, that Karl did not completely understand the mechanism, for otherwise he would not have let Fischer and Gravesande come to examine the closed wheel without seeing the mechanism. Of course, you can say that Gravesande should decide whether a power improvement is possible or not, but this makes no sense at all. Without seeing the mechanism, no one could decide whether it's possible or not.
Karl speaks of a simple construction that every carpenters apprentice could build. In a testimony to the tsar, Wolff describes the axle as hollow.(How could he know this?) There was something inside the axle, presumably the prime mover, which Karl had not seen.
I don't say the wheel was a hoax, but Landgraf Karl didn't understand the principle. Therefore, he hired s'Gravesande and Fischer to investigate the wheel in the absence of Besler.
On the contrary Karl was regarded as an extremely intelligent man, and he had watched over ten years of steam experiments with Denis Papin. He encouraged the sciences in Kassel and funded the university, he would have demanded that Bessler explain the workings of the wheel, and would not have been duped by trickery.
He had no say in whethe Fischer and Gravesande could see the mechanism, it was well known that no-one other than Karl had ever seen inside, so they knew perfectly well that they would see only the external surface of the wheel, because Bessler had stated on mumerous occasions that only someone willing to purchase the machine would be able to study its workings.
Karl didn't hire them to investigate the wheel, they were there already and curious about it. He simply made it available with Bessler's consent. Their purpose in being at Kassel was to advise Karl on the suitabilility of the Newcomen engine versus Captain Savery's 'miner's friend' steam engine as a potential pump for his cascade.
Karl said the wheel was simple and an apprentice could make one if he was allowed to study it for a time. You or I can look at simple clock and understand how it works, but not be able to make one unless we are clockwork apprentices. Simple to understand and make but not necessarily easy for everyone.
Karl didn't hire them to investigate the wheel, they were there already and curious about it.
My source says different:
"Im Herbst 1717 ermöglichte Landgraf Karl ihm die Errichtung eines Perpetuum mobile in einem Zimmer des damaligen Schlosses Weissenstein (heute Wilhelmshöhe) und attestierte ihm am 27. Mai 1718 schriftlich, dass dieses ab dem 12. November 1717 zwei Monate ohne Uhrwerk oder aufzuziehende Gewichte beständig gelaufen habe. Orffyreus publizierte im Oktober 1719 in Kassel ein in deutscher und lateinischer Sprache verfasstes Buch über dieses Projekt, ohne allerdings technische Einzelheiten offenzulegen. Im Sommer 1721 examinierten der österreichische Architekt Joseph Emanuel Fischer von Erlach (1693–1742) und der niederländische Physiker Willem Jacob ’s Gravesande (1688–1742) im Auftrag und im Beisein des Landgrafen die Maschine."
In the autumn of 1717 Landgraf Karl made it possible to erect a perpetuum mobile in a room of the then Weissenstein castle (today Wilhelm's height) and attested to him on 27 May 1718 in writing that from 12 November 1717 he had two months without clockwork or weights had run consistently. In October 1719, Orffyreus published a book in Kassel, written in German and Latin, on this project, but without disclosing any technical details. In the summer of 1721 the Austrian architect Joseph Emanuel Fischer von Erlach (1693-1742) and the Dutch physicist Willem Jacob 's Gravesande (1688-1742) examined the machine on behalf of and in the presence of the landgrave.
Zeitschrift des Vereins hessische Geschichte und Landeskunde, Bd 119, Seite 83
That's a report and although the Landgrave was present, it makes an assumption which implies that he was there as part of an investigation whereas I'm satisfied that they were not investigating the machine as you said earlier, but were examining it to assess its power and potential as a water pump for the cascade.
My point is that Karl did not need someone to tell him their opinion about the machine and how it worked, he already knew that.
Why did Bessler dismantle the wheel after Gravesande looked at the bearings? I thought that was part of the castle demonstrations and inspections all along, to prove there was no fraud involved.
Karl saw the interior of the wheel in 1717 and (supposedly immediately) understood the principle, but then needed FOUR years until 1721, until he chose a Newcomen steam engine.....
If he did not actually consult someone, because he knew how the machine worked, it was pure coincidence that Fischer, in 1721, had looked at the wheel of curiosity in Kassel, and then was commissioned by Karl in the same year in 1721, to install a Newcomen steam engine.
For me this mean that Karl didn't understood the principle immediately, but was hesitant and asked other experts for their opinion. His dilemma was that he could not tell anyone the principle, as he had understood it or thought to understand it. He would not have waited FOUR years until he had decided against the Bessler wheel.
Karl may have been an intelligent man, but that does not rule out that he was duped by a great illusionist. Bessler was a high-minded and gifted craftsman. I do not claim that his machine was a hoax, but for me it's clear, that Karl did not have fully understand the principle. Otherwise he had bought the wheel or installed a newcomen steam engine much earlier. For an intelligent person like landgrave Karl there is no point in waiting four years, if he completely understood the principle and didn't need the opinion of others.
eccentrically1 wrote:Why did Bessler dismantle the wheel after Gravesande looked at the bearings? I thought that was part of the castle demonstrations and inspections all along, to prove there was no fraud involved.
He did not destroy the wheel because the bearings were examined by 'sGravesande, but because Gravesande wanted to examine bearings and axle more precisely. It is still not clear why Wolff knew that the axis was hollow. Probably 'sGravesande wanted to percuss or look into the axle. A crucial function probably had the axle, because otherwise Bessler would not have had react like he did. 'sGravesande was probably very close to discover the secret. IMHO
I don't know why you think Karl did not understand Bessler's wheel immediately. You are assuming it for reasons of your own, despite Karl's assurances that it was simple and therefore easily understood.
Karl was the ruler of a busy and thriving country which had until his assumption of leadership been on its knees after thirty years of war. Karl brought prosperity back to his country. He was also acting as an honest broker between several warring nations during the time that Bessler lived at Kassel. Karl was a busy man much involved in matters of state, he could not simply tend to Bessler's need, nor his own interests in the cascade at ant time. There were more important calls on his time.
There is a letter dated earlier than 1717 in which he remarks that he awaits the return of his engineer from England who had been sent to obtain information about Newcomen's engine. But Newcomen was extremely secretive about his engine and information proved extremely difficult to get
Things took much longer then to accomplish and however long it took for Karl to order Newcomen's engine, that was how things were?
