Landgraf Karl von Hessen-Kassel

[daanopperman]

Hi ovaron

I have now doubt , that Bessler had a ppm .
He said that if someone bought the ppm , and it did not work as he said , then his head could be slaughtered off , and his head displayed in public for all to see . He did not say he could be decapitated , like a civil decapitation , but slaughter like a animal .

If you had a working fission reactor today , and nine years pass , and nobody wants to believe you have it , and a better machine was on the horizon , and you try to sell your reactor , and you have friends who send out pamflets declearing you a fraud , will you not be pissed off with the whole world , will you not destroy your reactor in a fit of rage , more inspections and waste of time . I do not believe that s'Gravesande was on the point of a breakthrough to find the secret , Bessler was just anointed , frustrated , fedup .

I believe that the Landgrave saw the whole wheel , and understood how it worked . If he did not saw the prime mover , he would not have said it was a genuine ppm .

As for the hollow axel , you only need to tap it with your fingertip to deduce that , and I think there where more than the axel being tapped . The first thing I will do finding a UFO , is tapping on it with the finger tips .


Anyone whom have delved into Bessler's wheel , or any would be ppm , will have realized the implication of his bidirectional wheel , which he built to disprove his enemies , who said his wheel had a hidden source of energy stored , whether it was weights hanging from the axel or a wound up spring .
Now we think of a oob wheel , a gravity wheel .
For anything to be out of balance inside the wheel , it must be connected to something to put it in that state , which of course would re trace it's path if reversed in rotation .
It is only now evident that the wheel will not get heavier on the other side if reversed , but remain heavy on one side only , no matter which direction the wheel is rotating .
Should you place 2 mechanism's back to back as some would be mobile makers claime it was done , to only find out it would be at best just a static display of a failed misconception . Bessler had something the world have never seen before or after .

As for a motion wheel , Newton's law prohibit this , for every action , there is a EQUAL AND OPPOSITE reaction .
In a ppm , you have to keep moving something , lest it becomes a stationary wheel .
In a balanced wheel ( we assume a motion wheel is just that if no motion is present ) , everything revolves around a central pivot , what is here , must also be there , less it becomes a gravity wheel . This makes it absolutely necessary to have something to push against , if you wish to move mass in one direction , Should you wish to move 2 masses , one mass must stay exactly 180 deg opposite the other , less it becomes a gravity wheel .
It does not matter what you do inside a wheel , every action will have a counter action to nullify it . And every misconception bring you back to a oob gravity driven wheel , there is nothing else , even if you use 93 octane , unless Frank Whittle was not the brainchild we gave him all the credit for .

Bessler said something about a wheel is to small to contain the prime mover ,
May be it was not a wheel after all , just hidden in a rotating canvass .

[Sam Peppiatt]

To all,

I would like to come to Bessler's deffence here, if I might. If I understand things correctly; he, Bessler, has just been ordered out of the castle, he has just lost his best chance, maybe the only chance of ever getting a big payday, he can't move the godam wheel, and he can't leave it there.

Now, on top of every thing else he got another friggen genius, like that A hole at Lock haven university telling him the wheel can't work! That was the last straw; so he smashed it to pieces!! What else could he do?

Sam

[daanopperman]

so what if he was anointed , I am sure he was , but also anoid

[ovyyus]

I have now doubt , that Bessler had a ppm

Do you have any doubt that James Cox had a "true perpetual motion machine"?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cox%27s_timepiece

[daanopperman]

Ovyyus ,

I have no knowledge of this person , nor of his achievements , but I am open to any education about him .

[daanopperman]

Ovyyus ,

Bessler's wheel is a mystey to me , but a much bigger mystery is why invent a word for something that you claim does not exists , but set rules for the duration of the event .

[daanopperman]

Come to think about it , is it be cause the materials will not last forever that the ppmr is made of or is it be caused of some one's idea of eternity .

Ppm is something that will keep going until time ends , and my understanding of convection tells me , a pressure differential windup timepiece will do just that if the material last , and the world bask in the eternal sun , perpetually , and indefinitely till the sun goes to happy hunting grounds , at which time eternaty will end , fulfilling the meaning of a true ppm .

[ovyyus]

In Bessler's (and Cox's) time, a 'true perpetual motion' might include a machine powered by nature. Cox's claim of 'true pm' would be deemed fraud in our time, but not fraud in Cox's (and Bessler's) time.

[daanopperman]

Bill ,

The only fraud I see here , is the person that connected the words " from within " to a machine that you do not have to keep on feeding energy into , to do some work for you .
All the energy is already among us , we only need to convert it through the ppm , from one form or another , perpetually .
This debate was evidently already rooted in Cox's time , for the word true is continuously present in self moving machines .
What would a machine be called today that is doing work on it's own , without you being needed to replenish it's fuel consumption .

[Art]

"What would a machine be called today that is doing work on it's own , without you being needed to replenish it's fuel consumption ."

-----------

It would need to be a

Sustainable Energy Machine (SEM)

[daanopperman]

Art ,

A PPSEM ?

According the scientific world , a true ppm would have to have a exhaust where matter is continuously discharged from .

[ovyyus]

The Jaeger-LeCoultre Atmos clock could have been legitimately marketed as a 'true perpetual motion' in the 18th century. Bessler had a window of opportunity that no longer exists.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmos_clock

[MrVibrating]

A perpetual motion machine, to me, implies an over-unity system; that is, an ostensibly closed system, with an anomalous non-zero or non-constant energy.

Another, more particular, way of phrasing the concept is as an asymmetric classical interaction; "classical" referring to classical physics / mechanics (ie. not quantum), an "interaction" being a closed-loop trajectory of a mass or charge through a force field, with an "asymmetric" balance of force / displacement integrals for the inbound (towards the field source) vs outbound (away from it) legs of that trajectory.

Bringing those two concepts together, OU implies a system in which a closed-loop interaction yields a non-zero energy despite the system appearing to be thermodynamically closed: as such, calorimetry of the complete system would show gains or losses of output energy compared to input energy.

Such systems, whether physical or theoretical, cannot be interpreted as creation or destruction of energy, but rather as indicators of an unidentified source or sink. Precisely the conclusion expressed by Weiss after witnessing Bessler's system, when he deduced that energy must've been flowing into the machine by means beyond the senses... this 18th century description of an imperceptible energy source powering a classical machine likely being the first in science history.

Bessler, for his part, seems from his musings content with notions of creation and destruction of energy / momentum ex-nihilo. This is implicit in his repeated use of terms like "prime" / "primus" etc., ie. a first cause unto itself. Elsewhere he draws parallels to 'heavenly motion', as that of the celestial bodies, ie. the fundaments of creation.

Leibniz seemed to be in something of two minds on the issue - he was unable to dismiss the possibility that Bessler's system could nonetheless still be what we would describe as a classical system, perhaps powered by conventional sources, but appeared to say little about what the null hypothesis would imply, and whether he would side with Weiss or Bessler on the providence of the source.

TL;DR

PMM = a system with non-zero or non-constant net energy, that intrinsically (rather than merely practically) cannot be thermodynamically isolated, and can only therefore be assumed to be in communion with a non-classical (ie. quantum) source or sink.

[ovaron]

From the 1936 book Physics for entertainment, by Yakov Perelman, from the chapter „THE "PERPETUAL MOTION"-MACHINE PETER THE GREAT WANTED TO BUY“
https://archive.org/details/physicsforentert035428mbp

On November 12, 1717, the machine was placed in a room all apart
and set into motion. The room was then locked and sealed, and two
grenad iers" were posted outside. For a whole fortnight, until the seal
was broken on November 26, no one dared to come near. Then the room
was unlocked and the Landgrave and his retinue entered. The wheel
was still spinning "with undiminishing speed". It was stopped, inspected
carefully, and again set going. Now the room was locked and
sealed for 40 days on end with grenadiers again stationed at the
door. The seal was broken on January 4, 1718. A commission of experts
entered and found that the wheel was still going. But this did not satisfy
the Landgrave and he staged a third trial, locking up the machine
for two whole months at a stretch.

Can someone confirm this „third trial“? Never heard of this before!

[John Collins]

It wasn't Karl who wanted to extend the trial but Bessler himself and it wasn't a third trial but a continuation of the first trial.

JC