Landgraf Karl von Hessen-Kassel

[daanopperman]

Thanks Ralph ,

The main aim of my post was to show it is gravity that is responsible for the water in the dam , not the Sun .The Sun is a catalyst in the process , no more .

That leaves us with the question , is the water wheel solar powered or gravity powered ?

I am also pleased you stated it so clear that it is gravity that cause the wind to move the moisture to a higher potential .

I won't read your article less I run short of data at the end of the month , but thanks a lot for your support .

Daan

[ME]

As earlier:

I think what Ecc1 means is that a weight can only go back up by transforming generated Kinetic Energy back to Potential Energy, showing the conservative nature of (gravitational/directional) force, or by some external force, which is usually a form of Solar Energy.
Which shows the scientific standpoint that any construction with mass simply can't pull itself up by mere gravity.

Like a gasoline-powered engine which can only use the gasoline once, so can mass-displacement (driven by gravity) power an engine... theoretically once.
[addition by Ovyyus: "and by every physical observation... "]

IOW, a waterwheel may be powered by water (mass displacement), the water gained its potential by the Sun. (cough*precipitation*cough)
It's a bit picky but in the end you may call this "Solar Powered"...

Despite some scientific technicalities we try to find a mechanism able to lift that water back up without relying on solar- or manual- (bucket lifting) labor.
It combines laziness with control issues in the hope we know exactly when and where a reliable amount is back up there again.
And going upwards also means it also gains the potential to move downwards.

Video - The Ocean: A Driving Force for Weather and Climate

00:40 The Earth's surface is warmed unevenly by the sun. Heat, a form of energy, helps drive ocean and atmospheric circulation.
00:52 The ocean absorbs and stores more heat than the atmosphere. Both the atmosphere and ocean move heat; the atmosphere does this quickly, the ocean slowly.
01:08 At the ocean's surface, winds drive currents.
01:20 Multiple forces keep the global ocean conveyor belt or Thermohaline Circulation in perpetual motion. Below the surface, deeper currents are driven by differences in density.

or Video - The Water Cycle Explained

[rlortie]

ME wrote:

"Despite some scientific technicalities we try to find a mechanism able to lift that water back up without relying on solar- or manual- (bucket lifting) labor.
It combines laziness with control issues in the hope we know exactly when and where a reliable amount is back up there again.
And going upwards also means it also gains the potential to move downwards."

Sounds to me, I should get off my arse, put other priority projects aside and get back to work on my water wheel!

Going upwards is not the only solution to gain potential to move downwards. Will Rogers a famous American comedian once wrote: " If you find yourself in a hole, stop digging! Of course he also wrote:"There are only two ways to argue with a woman, neither of them works!"

By its design, (in theory yet to be tested) it does not need to lift water. Not unlike a steam engine or electric motor it produces maximum torque when stalled! I believe Bessler's first uni-directional wheel displayed the same properties.

I am not lifting mass, the liquid on the accent is of the same density as on the descent. No need to lift what seeks its own level.

Reminds me of a long ago thread where someone wrote about standing on a slipppery throw rug while pushing on a door that opened inward. There is more to be considered in this statement than most would recognize.

Ralph

[Sam Peppiatt]

I want to make sure I have this straight, when it gets dark the water wheel will stop running? OK--------------------

[ME]

?
I try...

The main aim of my post was to show it is gravity that is responsible for the water in the dam

For a waterwheel I had figured this as an external flow of water as a source: with a dam upstream filled by rain.
For this setting: "is the water wheel solar powered or gravity powered ?"
How and why is meteorology...or we could talk about water pressure...or talk about ones personal wheel design containing water and so also rightly be called a "waterwheel"...
Anyhow, it could rain at night.

Also the talk seems to branch a bit...
Getting of ones arse also means one could fall (PE=mgh) but also provides the possibility to get somewhere else (PE-->KE) or have to option to sit down again to save energy....unless ones is bound by a wheelchair and such option could become something an entirely different challenge or needs to be translated into something like Rotational kinetics for example.
It's often the same difference, but who am I to judge about priorities and what's best.

[ovyyus]

The main aim of my post was to show it is gravity that is responsible for the water in the dam , not the Sun .The Sun is a catalyst in the process , no more.

You have the cart before the horse. We're circling the drain here.

[daanopperman]

Ovyyus ,

In a gravity less environment , the liquid water and it's precipitation will occupy the same space , there will be no separation even if the Sun boils the water .

They only call it Solar powered because they don't know which side of the the horse the arse is .

[ovyyus]

In the age of trump a horse is an ass and fool is the rule.

[daanopperman]

Please don't get me wrong ,

I am not saying gravity is not conservative .

There are exceptions in what is excepted as the rule in nature .

Water is one of the exceptions . All mass will occupie less volume when cooled down , so does water , but when frozen , ice will increase in volume , making it less dense .

Bessler's first wheels started rotating when unleashed , I will say no more about that .
He also said his prime mover was found in nature , but we know it was not gravity that moved mass upwards , there is no force in nature happening fast enough to rotate a wheel at 50 rpm , or lift AND lower 75 lb of bricks one floor up or down with the same finesse .

I also believe his wheel was so simple in construction/principal that he was afraid her would loose face should someone find out how it was done .
For him the fame was worth more than the money .

[daanopperman]

Yes ,

And a vergin foul now be known as a well fucked duck .

[eccentrically1]

He also said his prime mover was found in nature ,

If Bessler said his prime mover was found in nature, then how can this be:

there is no force in nature happening fast enough to rotate a wheel at 50 rpm , or lift AND lower 75 lb of bricks one floor up or down with the same finesse .

The short term demonstrations' descriptions are missing just enough of the right details.
How long were they? How many brick lifts and drops? Was it started and stopped for each one? Stopped between lift and drop? Continuously running? How was the rope engaged on the axle? Men guiding it on? Freely winding? Engaged before the startup or after? How many times were the stampers lifted in each demo? How long was the water screw pumping?

From what I've read, in wagner's paper, the demos were rather short, ~ 30 minutes or less. Then what? What happened in between demos? Did the wheel stop or keep going? And these questions are for the Kassel demos. We know practically nothing about the Meresburg wheel demos. Or the first two wheels' demos, which, according to Bessler, "ran on quite different principles", because the sound of the mechanism was different (scratching vs. thumping). Those wheels only lifted bricks and some demos were outdoors I believe, is that correct? They, and the Meresburg wheel, weren't designed for long runs either.

If their force can be found in nature, it wouldn't have to be a very powerful force to do work for 30 minute demos. That's the main reason he was asked to design one for a long duration test, right? And that is missing just enough of the right details as well to make you go hmm. If it's using the same force for the long test, then, again, it wouldn't have to be a very powerful force if the only work it does is on its own friction.

Hmm?

[Silvertiger]

For him the fame was worth more than the money.

I don't think Bessler would agree with you...

Enemy - I know your nature. You're only sorry that you won't have my machine and so get yourself a ton of gold! You'd like me to reveal the secret to you for nothing, wouldn't you? For nothing - as free as the air - an outright present with not a penny paid!
- AP, pg. 302

Because my mind was so firmly fixed on completing and assembling my machine, and on the possible profits to be made from it.
- AP, pg. 336

You're also now claiming that I must have taken it badly that you had forestalled my invention and snatched the ensuing profit away from me.
- AP, pg. 341

How was the rope engaged on the axle?

Here is Bessler's answer to that question...

It is, however, an incontestable truth that my much-mentioned Wheel deserves not only the name of the long-sought Perpetual Motion, but also, just as much, the name (Perpetual) Mover; since it is an example of one of the best-known of all mechanical appliances, namely a peritrochium.
- DT, pg. 191

A peritrochium is the mechanical driver of an "axis in peritrochio." In layman's terms, the axis in peritrochio is an axle that winds or unwinds a rope about it, driven by a peritrochium, which is basically a wheel with handles on it like a helm wheel for a boat. The most common application was drawing water from a well.

[eccentrically1]

Yes, we know it was a wheel and axle. The questions after the one you highlighted are the follow up questions.
We debated this on another thread, but I can't remember if we reached a consensus how the demo was performed.
It could hold clues if we agreed on the method.
I think we couldn't agree how it was done because there weren't any such descriptions in the testimonies.

[daanopperman]

Eccentrically 1

It is claimed by some that Bessler's wheel was not a true ppm , meaning the power driving his wheels came not from within . It is this outside source that was referred to in my post that there is nothing with a potential great enough in nature to deliver this , like pressure diff , or temp difference , or the carioless effect .

Silvertiger ,

Yet Bessler said the wheel came to him in a dream . For free , like the air , an outright present with not a penny paid ?

[daanopperman]

Eccentrically 1 ,

If you unleash a wheel , and it increase in rotational velocity , and you need force to bring it to a standstill , I would say that it need not run for a long period of time to prove it is real ,
Bessler made his bi directional wheels to disprove the wound up spring inside then wheel idea .