Landgraf Karl von Hessen-Kassel

[eccentrically1]

Eccentrically 1

It is claimed by some that Bessler's wheel was not a true ppm , meaning the power driving his wheels came not from within . It is this outside source that was referred to in my post that there is nothing with a potential great enough in nature to deliver this , like pressure diff , or temp difference , or the carioless effect .

If you unleash a wheel , and it increase in rotational velocity , and you need force to bring it to a standstill , I would say that it need not run for a long period of time to prove it is real ,
Bessler made his bi directional wheels to disprove the wound up spring inside then wheel idea .

If it was a "true ppm" then what was the natural source inside the wheel that provided the potential great enough to deliver this?

The testimony about forcing the wheel to a standstill left out one important detail: how long did they let it run before trying to stop it? I would guess for only a minute or so. So that's not proof it was a true ppm. Would the force necessary to stop it have been less after 30 minutes of runtime? An hour? A week?

Wagner's design was also bidirectional, so making a bidirectional version didn't disprove there was a wound up spring. I don't think there was a wound up spring, but there was spring tension utilized in some way if we take him at his word. If the springs weren't for torque, what is left? If memory serves, the only ideas we've come up with were to store some kinetic energy of the weights, to use either for the next cycle or the next startup, or to absorb some of the impact to protect the wheel parts.

[eccentrically1]

Einstein's theory of relativity adds to this. His theory predicted that objects with great mass deform space around them, causing light to deflect into them. That has been shown to be true. He also predicted that gravity could travel in gravity waves, which we haven't seen yet.

Actually they have been seen, the nobel prize was just given to the guys that detected them.

https://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes ... press.html

[Silvertiger]

Yet Bessler said the wheel came to him in a dream . For free , like the air , an outright present with not a penny paid ?

No he didn't. The dream you're talking about came to him several weeks prior to his first working wheel, a dream that he doesn't go into detail about, other than the fact that it gave him joy and peace and enlightenment. Nowhere within the confines of the details of his dream does he say that the wheel came to him through it. It also has nothing to do with being fairly compensated for something he worked very hard to create. People tend to see what they want to see. Try not to do that - it will reduce the chance of mincing words and prevent one from romanticizing the actual truth.

I had a rare dream, which gave me strength, happiness, air and space. For weeks I forgot the outside world and concentrated on my innermost self. Soon I was free of cares and greatly comforted by a new enlightenment. God had sent Joy after sorrow. After barreness, the finest silk was being spun. For I put together the very first device which could spontaneously revolve a little. I saw that I had finally made the right choice, and why the earlier ones had been wrong. My heart leapt for joy at the sight of this genuine Mobile.
- AP, pg. 269

[ovyyus]

Bessler's first wheels started rotating when unleashed , I will say no more about that .
He also said his prime mover was found in nature , but we know it was not gravity that moved mass upwards , there is no force in nature happening fast enough to rotate a wheel at 50 rpm , or lift AND lower 75 lb of bricks one floor up or down with the same finesse .

What if Bessler found a, 'force in nature happening fast enough...'?

[daanopperman]

Ovyyus ,

Bessler said unlike other automata that relies on springs or weights hanging from the axel , his machines were true ppm's .

If the power did not come from within, it had to come from the outside , what force from the outside which was not perceived by the witnesses , would you say was responsible for turning the wheel @ 50 rpm or lift the case with the bricks . There is nothing in nature that can induce force from outside to have that energy density .

@ Silvertiger ,

Bessler said " God have send joy after sorrow " , after all his failures he received the gift for free ., It is not what I want to see , or make up some soapie , it is what I read in Bessler's words .

[ovyyus]

Dan, Bessler stated that his wheel wasn't driven by the usual clockwork mechanisms, like wound springs and hanging weights. James Cox could have correctly claim the same for his 'true pm' clock 50 years after Bessler.

Unlike Cox, I doubt Bessler harnessed ambient barometric changes to power his 'true pm' wheel. RPM and power are unrelated, but Bessler still needed at least 20 Watts to drive his largest wheel demonstrations.

Excluding gravity and inertia as a potential energy source (for obvious reasons), what else might power Bessler's wheel? I think there are two possibilities: fraud or a heat difference. Fraud aside, I wonder how Bessler created a 'true pm' heat difference? Could the motion of his wheel help create and/or amplify a heat difference?

Bessler's largest wheel contained about 4kg of compressible fluid (air) and rotated at speeds generating considerable cf. Slits at the rotating wheel rim and axle (eyewitness report) would create a centrifugal air pump. A few simple flap valves and it's a pump with timing...

[Silvertiger]

Bessler said " God have send joy after sorrow " , after all his failures he received the gift for free ., It is not what I want to see , or make up some soapie , it is what I read in Bessler's words .

1. He had enough faith in God to credit Him and give thanks for the invention. Under the presumption that God helped him, would God have done so if Bessler never worked at it? Faith allowed Bessler to credit God for his own mind, a mind which God gave him at birth, according to faith. In this way, God can be credited for the design as HE created the mind of the inventor within Bessler.

2. Bessler still deserved profit for the fruits of the labors of the mind which God gave him, and he said so. You may have missed it, so please refer to my post on the previous page and read again what Bessler said.

[ovaron]

@ovyyus
Interesting theory. This would explain in some way why the axle was hollow, according to Wolff. Bessler said, that the axle also had different holes. As an organ builder, he knew how to work with air bellows. What is against it, is Landgraf Karls statement that the mechanism is very simple. So we would be back at the beginning of the thread. Did Karl really see and understand the mechanism? Karls statement must be understood in such a way that the mechanism is nothing exceptional.

[ovyyus]

Ovaron, what if there was no 'mechanism'? Can't get simpler than that. A sensible buyer wouldn't pay for a hollow wheel.

[ME]

...but Bessler still needed at least 20 Watts to drive his largest wheel demonstrations.

Excluding gravity and inertia as a potential energy source (for obvious reasons), what else might power Bessler's wheel? I think there are two possibilities: fraud or a heat difference. Fraud aside, I wonder how Bessler created a 'true pm' heat difference? Could the motion of his wheel help create and/or amplify a heat difference?

but if Bessler used a heat-source it would have been felt [add: In a stone cold castle].

You think finding a gravity/inertia energy source is more likely than hiding a low energy heat source? One can be accomplished, but not the other.

Name me one source of usable energy source that does not create heat in its function of producing power.
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... 370#141370

To continue:

Bessler's largest wheel contained about 4kg of compressible fluid (air)...

But if Bessler used compressed air it would have been heard.

[eccentrically1]

Not if the air was released slowly and the other sounds drowned it out.

[ovyyus]

But if Bessler used compressed air it would have been heard.

I didn't say Bessler used 'compressed' air. Bessler's 12 foot wheel had a volume of about 4 cubic metres. Air weighs about 1kg per m3, so total weight of air inside Bessler's wheel was about 4kg. Rotating a 4kg cylinder of 'compressible' air generate a pressure/thermal gradient between rim and axle.

[Silvertiger]

That pressure/thermal gradient is radially uniform. How could Bessler use it to his advantage? He said that the weights themselves were the pm device. This works against your statement. If you are operating under the possibility that he lied either directly or by omission or both, then it becomes valid. (Even if his weights moved the air according to his design, whatever shape that the air took would still do so uniformly.) The only gravitationally biased form of thermal energy transfer is convection, whereby dense material (gas or fluid) sinks, and less dense material rises, which can be the cause or the product of a current, whichever comes first. In a rotating wheel, current would be the prime source of the convection. But because it is rotating, the convection would still be uniformly distributed. The air would flow fastest right next to the rim and the rest would pretty much remain still. Therefore there would be greater air pressure and less temperature in all areas except the rim area, which would have less air pressure at a higher temperature. Pretty useless, as the exploitable temperature difference would be negligible...and the fact that the pressures and temperatures are radially uniform. Plus, the unfastening of a bolt and the pressure of two fingers completely rule out the scenario possibilities altogether.

[ovyyus]

A rotating cylinder of air with an opening at the rim and an opening at the axle is a centrifugal pump. Air is drawn in at the axle and expelled/sucked (cf + venturi) out at the rim. Air pressure inside the rotating cylinder is negative.

[Silvertiger]

Centrifugal pumps are still just pumps...they use energy to move fluids. Moreover, the unfastening of a bolt, the pressure of two fingers, and all of Bessler's descriptions of the motion, don't even put this idea within the same city, let alone the same ball park, of the realm of possibility here. It doesn't fit...at all. Why include it?