Twist to Classic Wheel
Moderator: scott
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Silvertiger
- Devotee
- Posts: 1059
- Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2011 1:12 pm
- Location: Henderson, KY
re: Twist to Classic Wheel
@ eccentrically
Magnets act like a spring as they have their potential/kinetic energies conserved depending on various factors. That fact is not relevant to concept of this thread.
@ Silvertiger
I have a feeling that you didn't understand the concept. Please read the posts if you haven't.
It is quite simple to understand. Imagine having a string pulling on the weight toward the axis. The pull is canceled and the wheel do not feel the pull. The wheel will act as if the pull is not happening and as if the weight is part of the wheel. No matter where you pull along the radial direction of the wheel, the wheel will not feel the pull. What the wheel feels is the location of the weight and the weight itself. Instead of a string, take into consideration a magnet. Now, magnets are more advance to grasp. Magnets have more room for trouble. "Getting stuck" is the summary of all the problems with magnets in PMM designs. This wheel is not a fast wheel and it is powered by the counter weight which will allow a lift of more weight. The help of the "strings pulling" (magnet) on the weight simply moves the weight in the radial direction. However, because we need to design it in a way to prevent the magnet from being "Stuck," the equilibrium is the key. As explained before, at the horizontal direction, the magnetic strength is zero abs(mg*sin(deg)). What can we do when a weight is in equilibrium? A slight force can move it (detach) from the magnet hold which will never experience a "Stuck" situation.
I hope this makes more sense.
Magnets act like a spring as they have their potential/kinetic energies conserved depending on various factors. That fact is not relevant to concept of this thread.
@ Silvertiger
I have a feeling that you didn't understand the concept. Please read the posts if you haven't.
It is quite simple to understand. Imagine having a string pulling on the weight toward the axis. The pull is canceled and the wheel do not feel the pull. The wheel will act as if the pull is not happening and as if the weight is part of the wheel. No matter where you pull along the radial direction of the wheel, the wheel will not feel the pull. What the wheel feels is the location of the weight and the weight itself. Instead of a string, take into consideration a magnet. Now, magnets are more advance to grasp. Magnets have more room for trouble. "Getting stuck" is the summary of all the problems with magnets in PMM designs. This wheel is not a fast wheel and it is powered by the counter weight which will allow a lift of more weight. The help of the "strings pulling" (magnet) on the weight simply moves the weight in the radial direction. However, because we need to design it in a way to prevent the magnet from being "Stuck," the equilibrium is the key. As explained before, at the horizontal direction, the magnetic strength is zero abs(mg*sin(deg)). What can we do when a weight is in equilibrium? A slight force can move it (detach) from the magnet hold which will never experience a "Stuck" situation.
I hope this makes more sense.
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Silvertiger
- Devotee
- Posts: 1059
- Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2011 1:12 pm
- Location: Henderson, KY
Beapilot, it doesn't matter where the magnet is mounted, whether stationary on the background or on the axle. Your concept is actually simple and has been visited many times past - not just by me. Read carefully. The goal of your design is to use the magnet to pull a weight towards the axle (I get it...not that difficult a concept to grasp.) The magnet will inevitably trap your weight in its field of flux. Unless you physically move the magnet or dampen the flux intermittently, the magnet itself will stall your wheel. It is the reverse effect of the classical definition of magnetic damping. Instead of a magnet moving past a conductor, a conductor is moving past a magnet...same difference. If the magnetic flux is strong enough to pull the weight towards it from a certain distance, the field strength will increase by an inverse cube law (1/r^3), meaning that as the weight gets pulled in, it will take far more energy to pull it away to its original distance. Hence, the weight will get "stuck."
I hope this makes more sense... ;)
I hope this makes more sense... ;)
re: Twist to Classic Wheel
@ Silvertiger,
Thank you for explaining your view point. I simply don't see how this will be stuck. I've been a PMM enthusiast for years. When I began investigating magnets, all those wheels that failed due to the stuck mode, I just can't figure out why the design in this thread will cause the weight to be stuck.
You said: "The magnet will inevitably trap your weight in its field of flux. Unless you physically move the magnet or dampen the flux intermittently, the magnet itself will stall your wheel."
I think I see what you are thinking. You are viewing independent magnets. What you might of missed was the statement that the magnets are arranged in such a way, (possibly by 1 entire magnet with many micro points individually magnetized) at various strengths, such that no matter where you move along the path, it will be in equilibrium (as if rolling a ball on a flat surface). This, is the most difficult part of the design build of which is why I brought it on here for a discussion.
Thank you for explaining your view point. I simply don't see how this will be stuck. I've been a PMM enthusiast for years. When I began investigating magnets, all those wheels that failed due to the stuck mode, I just can't figure out why the design in this thread will cause the weight to be stuck.
You said: "The magnet will inevitably trap your weight in its field of flux. Unless you physically move the magnet or dampen the flux intermittently, the magnet itself will stall your wheel."
I think I see what you are thinking. You are viewing independent magnets. What you might of missed was the statement that the magnets are arranged in such a way, (possibly by 1 entire magnet with many micro points individually magnetized) at various strengths, such that no matter where you move along the path, it will be in equilibrium (as if rolling a ball on a flat surface). This, is the most difficult part of the design build of which is why I brought it on here for a discussion.
re: Twist to Classic Wheel
I just want to point out that this is a great example of how this forum should work. Person has idea,person posts idea,knowledgable members who have been down this road give advice. Beautiful! For my two cents, I have also done several magnet designs,and it always turns out the same.If the magnet is strong enough to exert any force on the wheel,then the wheel will be trapped by the magnet.And thanks to Silvertiger for going the extra mile and simming it. And thanks to beapilot for posting the idea.
Trying to turn the spinning in my brain into something useful before moving on to the next life.
re: Twist to Classic Wheel
beapilot1 has come up with some interesting approaches in the past that I have been aloud to see and don't talk about. But on this one I am afraid has been tried in many configurations to no success. Over on over unity was where it was talk about but I don't have time to look back and find them. But I believe it was about 6 years ago, if you want to look what they did.
"Our education can be the limitation to our imagination, and our dreams"
So With out a dream, there is no vision.
Old and future wheel videos
https://www.youtube.com/user/ABthehammer/videos
Alan
So With out a dream, there is no vision.
Old and future wheel videos
https://www.youtube.com/user/ABthehammer/videos
Alan
re: Twist to Classic Wheel
@ sleepy
I am basically advanced in the PMM design spectrum and came up with hundreds of designs. It became interesting to me to discover new situations that are not looked at closely. I didn't consider magnets because they lose their strength over time and the complexity. However, I decided that magnets may be the key here.
@ AB Hammer
:)
The reason why I didn't bother with the PMM because I gave it up. But, due to the nature of magnets, it opened another window of opportunity since that last demonstration I showed you.
@ Everyone else
The goal here is to overcome the stuck phase. The stuck phase is established as if you have a flat surface with large holes in them, but a ball can roll over the surface. The ball will get stuck in one of those holes easily. If you have a surface with many micro holes, then the same ball will roll easier, therefore will not get stuck with the great force as many other PMM inventors tried to overcome.
This situation is the same if you have independent magnets (large holes) which will get stuck by the strong magnetic filed. If you have many magnets arranged in such a way, you will have the strong central magnetic filed in many more places (small holes on surface).
Please see the image for the illustration: https://imgur.com/a/Wiyod
I am basically advanced in the PMM design spectrum and came up with hundreds of designs. It became interesting to me to discover new situations that are not looked at closely. I didn't consider magnets because they lose their strength over time and the complexity. However, I decided that magnets may be the key here.
@ AB Hammer
:)
The reason why I didn't bother with the PMM because I gave it up. But, due to the nature of magnets, it opened another window of opportunity since that last demonstration I showed you.
@ Everyone else
The goal here is to overcome the stuck phase. The stuck phase is established as if you have a flat surface with large holes in them, but a ball can roll over the surface. The ball will get stuck in one of those holes easily. If you have a surface with many micro holes, then the same ball will roll easier, therefore will not get stuck with the great force as many other PMM inventors tried to overcome.
This situation is the same if you have independent magnets (large holes) which will get stuck by the strong magnetic filed. If you have many magnets arranged in such a way, you will have the strong central magnetic filed in many more places (small holes on surface).
Please see the image for the illustration: https://imgur.com/a/Wiyod
re: Twist to Classic Wheel
@ all
I've been looking for uniform magnetic field lines in attempt to prevent stuck modes. This will allow an object to be along a plane where each point will be the same gauss.
Halbach array, especially the one that is in tube formation was a starting point.
I decided to mess with FEMM and came up with the following solution:
https://imgur.com/a/0GF7h
This is a wedge magnet, as the top and bottom are magnets. I needed to connect the left end to prevent "gate" stuck mode. This was done with a ferrous metal. A wheel is curved, but this is showing the basic principle. If you look close at the image, you will notice it goes from yellow to blue smoothly. Also notice the spacing of the lines increase as they move further right. That signals the strength is decreasing as the distance moves further right. This is a poor design, but it shows that this wheel in this thread is a step closer to being possible. The only thing that I can think of that is not allowing this wheel to operate is the knowledge of a magnetic arrangement that will have equilibrium along the wall of the wheel in this thread. This post shown is showing that this can be possible.
I'm not confident with the sandwich design. But I know that this wheel will be possible if instructions are followed in this thread for the magnetic arrangement on one side. It is a matter of design at this point, as it seems the theory of a uniform magnetic filed is possible.
I've been looking for uniform magnetic field lines in attempt to prevent stuck modes. This will allow an object to be along a plane where each point will be the same gauss.
Halbach array, especially the one that is in tube formation was a starting point.
I decided to mess with FEMM and came up with the following solution:
https://imgur.com/a/0GF7h
This is a wedge magnet, as the top and bottom are magnets. I needed to connect the left end to prevent "gate" stuck mode. This was done with a ferrous metal. A wheel is curved, but this is showing the basic principle. If you look close at the image, you will notice it goes from yellow to blue smoothly. Also notice the spacing of the lines increase as they move further right. That signals the strength is decreasing as the distance moves further right. This is a poor design, but it shows that this wheel in this thread is a step closer to being possible. The only thing that I can think of that is not allowing this wheel to operate is the knowledge of a magnetic arrangement that will have equilibrium along the wall of the wheel in this thread. This post shown is showing that this can be possible.
I'm not confident with the sandwich design. But I know that this wheel will be possible if instructions are followed in this thread for the magnetic arrangement on one side. It is a matter of design at this point, as it seems the theory of a uniform magnetic filed is possible.
re: Twist to Classic Wheel
@ all
The following magnetic arrangement will not work:
https://imgur.com/a/Brzup
Even though that it achieves the desired pull, it acts on the x direction which will create a force exerted on the wheel. I thought then go back to the basic:
https://imgur.com/a/9jqdW
When the ferrous object is in the direct center, the top and bottom magnets pull equally, thereby canceling. If start near the surface of the magnet, you get a greater pull and at the center will be no pull. The disadvantage of this design is the need to figure out how to overcome the stuck mode (escaping the sandwich magnets). At the entrance, it pulls in the ferrous object (energy gained) and at the other end, to pull it out, should require the same amount of energy (energy loss- restored). I'm going to keep thinking about the magnetic arrangements to attempt what is needed to make this wheel work.
The following magnetic arrangement will not work:
https://imgur.com/a/Brzup
Even though that it achieves the desired pull, it acts on the x direction which will create a force exerted on the wheel. I thought then go back to the basic:
https://imgur.com/a/9jqdW
When the ferrous object is in the direct center, the top and bottom magnets pull equally, thereby canceling. If start near the surface of the magnet, you get a greater pull and at the center will be no pull. The disadvantage of this design is the need to figure out how to overcome the stuck mode (escaping the sandwich magnets). At the entrance, it pulls in the ferrous object (energy gained) and at the other end, to pull it out, should require the same amount of energy (energy loss- restored). I'm going to keep thinking about the magnetic arrangements to attempt what is needed to make this wheel work.