TO PATENT OR---------

[james kelly]

To patent or not to patent. It becomes a monumental problem. complete disclosure? I think not. Idea patent, all inclusive? What kind of protection do we want? Having attorneys in the family may help? How many countries to patent in? Now fellows, I am a simple PE? share some thoughts. YOU may have to face this also. jim kelly[/b]

[Fletcher]

James, this is a much vexed question. There are many threads & volumes of opinion dedicated to this very question. jim_mich & Pete are probably the leading authorities & certainly have firm opinions about it. Jim has done much of the preliminary work already. Try the SEARCH function using his name 'jim*' with the word 'patent' to read the relevant responses.

If he feels inclined he may give you the posting references or cut & paste to your new thread to save you the trouble. You have much to think about.

[jim_mich]

This has been discussed before. I feel it is best to patent. Others don't agree.

As far as full disclosure goes, if you seek a patent you must disclose all. Failure to do so is foolish. The patent will only cover what you disclose. If you hold something back then it won't be covered by the patent!

Patent applications should be filed in such a way as to result in patents in most major countries. This process can be stretched out over about three years.

Also be aware that the U.S. suppresses certain patents.
See http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/invention/

[ovyyus]

Treat the solution like any fundamental scientific breakthrough in physics - take steps to ensure your name is forever attached to the solution and GIVE IT AWAY as fast as you can! Something this big would certainly assure you of a prize or two - more than enough for any man :)

[rlortie]

Jim_mich,

Regarding Jim Kelly and his machine, If it comes to a patentable stage (mine is not running yet) I believe that it would fall under the National Security Act and be suppressed.

I have touched on this subject a little in the past and Refer to Howard Hughes father who invented the oil well drill head. He never sold any but rented them and maintained them. This lead to the Hughes Tool and Die company and one of the richest man in the world of his day.

I see Jims dream as being a number of large units generating electricity (like a windmill farm) that is fed into the grid. You do not sell or license the machine to anyone. You simply set back and reap the income for the energy sold. and this of course would be never ending.

Ralph

[ovyyus]

Ralph, my opinion is that Jim's dream, as you've outlined it, won't happen in a million years. Either it will be stolen or it will be suppressed, or both, and Jim will get less than zip. No way a fundamental breakthrough in physics like this can be controlled by someone renting machines and/or selling power to the grid. Dream on.

My guess is that you guys would survive about 30 seconds as independent operators in the corporate jungle while clutching such a nice juicy bag of sweeties. No offence intended. The preditors will just take it away from you - easy peasy. Ralph, one knock on your back door would be all it would take to shut you down mate. Think about it some more. If you're planning a patent or some other way of cornering this particular market, say hello to some nasty experiences and say goodbye to that nice peaceful lawn... good luck and don't forget to write.

[jim_mich]

Don't try to corner the market. Do things that prevent suppression. The goal is to receive a small royalty payment based on the size of each wheel manufactured. You have nothing without a patent. With a patent you have the possibility of success, not a guaranty. It all depends on how you conduct your business.

Many think if they invent a better mousetrap the world will beat a path to their door. That never happens. You must go out and sell the mousetraps. And if your mousetrap is better then many will try to copy it. If you have a patent then you can offer the copycats some choices. Pay the royalty fees or risk a court case and end up paying much more in damages on top of the royalty fees and be shut down. Without a patent in hand you have no leverage.

The corporate world is just people like you and me. It is not some big scary monster. I should know; I'm the CFO of a small corporation.

Why bother inventing something if you can't reap some reward?

[bluesgtr44]

Why bother inventing something if you can't reap some reward?



Jim...because I want to WIN! It's like a puzzle to me and I want to solve it! Now, a little money on the side would be nice, but that is not my motivation here.


Steve

[Fletcher]

"Money is a Consequence, not an Objective", eh Steve :)

[rlortie]

In considering the motivation and consequences, I think that with most of us diehards, there is one dominate force.

That is, when asked why did you climb that mountain. Edmund Hillary conquerer of Mount Everest said "Because It was There" and for this he achieved Knighthood.

History says that Bessler's mechanical usage of weights to turn a wheel is there, and I wish to climb it. I will worry about the consequences after the achievement.

Ralph

[ovyyus]

To say that it's not possible to reap reward unless by patent is short sighted, IMO. The discovery of the DNA double helix molecule was a major breakthrough in human understanding. Watson was rewarded with a Nobel Prize and a full life of ongoing interest and application - no patents required. An autobiography alone would appeal to millions of interested readers - I believe Watson became a millionaire from his. How much fun can a poor boy have :)

There's just so many interesting possible takes on this rather than getting all screwed up on a patent as the only way to reap reward. Afterall, we're not just taking about a better mousetrap here are we?

[jim_mich]

Bill's reward would be fame and prize money.

Steve's reward would be winning, solving the puzzle, and maybe a little money.

Ralph's reward would be success in doing the difficult, along with any consequences, and money?

Does obtaining a patent negate the possibility of also winning a Nobel Prize?

Don't Nobel Prizes usually go to people in the academic world? What are the chances for a farm boy from the sticks, like me?

As far as talk shows go, when in front of an audience I tend to be a blubbering idiot.

And my autobiography would be dull and boring. I'd have to pay people to read it.

The satisfaction of solving Bessler's riddle might give me a warm satisfied feeling inside, but will that warm feeling put food on my table?

Engineers, doctors, lawyers, teachers, hamburger flippers all get compensated for their labor. So why should an inventor work for free? Shouldn't he also be compensated for his time and effort? About the only way an inventor can make money is by obtaining a patent.

Sure there are ways to reap rewards rather than the patent route, but what are the chances of success?

[ME]

I think the solution is simple....

Start a circus !!! serious; go to Ophrah, Larry King, or whatever public TV program. Go to schools and professors. Just show the damn thing and let it be tested in public.. a modern version of Besslers situation. Hopefully you get money to get a world wide patent. After that you can pull away the oil cloth.

The necessary and paranoid part:
In the meantime your design should be save with some integer people you trust and don't care about your design. (your mother for instance). Or place it somewhere hidden on the internet or dedicated pc (not at home!) with heavy encryption. Once a month at a different library you upload some dummy file, letting a script know you are still there.. if not, it will let the design out in the world. or something like, one must open your testimony when you're dead, telling about a password to be send to some address having the address of the one having the disc etc etc...

[james kelly]

This unit is not a toy. It is a serious power producing machine.AT one time I thought that if I introduced it in several different areas at the same time, it would offset denials or theft..patents are like pad locks; they keep hones men honest, but thieves are not honest and pad locks only are a slight nusience. jim kelly ps; my great uncle bill invented the steel process. It is a matter of public record. He received a patent and was producing steel 2 full years before Bessemer got his english patent.but.... Bessemer got all the ballyhoo and the publicity. ..... THAT is real life.. jim kelly

[rlortie]

Where I need some enlightening on patents, is how long are they good for, and what protects ones rights to royalties over time.

Some good examples are the Fridge in your kitchen. First invented and patented by the Frigidaire company. Soon the term Fridge become an unpatentable common name. Now you go to the fridge for a cold one and it may have a name plate saying Amana, Hotpoint Whirlpool, Sears or a half dozen other makes. Does the original Frigidaire company receive royalties from any one producing a refrigerator???

My second example is the plastic laminate on your counter tops. First conceived and patented as Formica brand. Soon it was known as Formica and the word was used to describe the product and not the name of the patent holding company that produced it. now there are a dozen manufactures producing plastic laminate under such names as Conselweld, Wilson Art, ETC, and the general public refers to it as formica. Does the original patent holder receive royalties from these copycat companys???

Ralph