Tenivgl vf gur fvax, abg gur fbhepr bs OrffyreJurry raretl

A Bessler, gravity, free-energy free-for-all. Registered users can upload files, conduct polls, and more...

Moderator: scott

Post Reply
User avatar
Grimer
Addict
Addict
Posts: 5280
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:46 am
Location: Harrow, England
Contact:

Tenivgl vf gur fvax, abg gur fbhepr bs OrffyreJurry raretl

Post by Grimer »

Think of Bessler's wheel as a Gravity engine analogous to the Stirling engine.
The difference in gravitation potential is analogous to the difference in temperature potential.

The stress in the components of the wheel is analogous to pressure.

The deformation of the components is analogous to the volume change.

So the material of the wheel is the working "fluid", albeit a much stiffer working fluid than that of the conventional Stirling engine.

The cycle is as follows:

The 360° pendulum falls from 1°, say, and as it sweeps around its orbit transfers some of its energy to a rotating rim which speeds up. As the pendulum reaches 350°, say, enough energy is transferred back to take the pendulum over the top and repeat the cycle. The remaining energy is used to increase the speed of the rim.

Now in the conventional Stirling motor, the hot coffee demo engine for example, energy is supplied to keep the engine performing mechanical work.
Where is the energy supply for the hypothetical Gravity engine coming from? A seeming endless supply to boot.

Consider now that instead of using hot coffee for the Stirling we use ice.
The flywheel still rotates supplying mechanical energy.
How can this be?

Someone who knows a bit of physics but is not too bright might say,

"Ah, the energy comes from the ice giving up its latent heat",
which is 60 calories per gram (if my memory serves me correctly).

Why is this incorrect and where does the energy come from in this case?

Any offers? :-)
Who is she that cometh forth as the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terribilis ut castrorum acies ordinata?
daanopperman
Devotee
Devotee
Posts: 1546
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:43 pm

re: Tenivgl vf gur fvax, abg gur fbhepr bs OrffyreJurry rare

Post by daanopperman »

Hi Frank ,

First , a little bit of how the Sterling cycle works .

If you have a room , with a huge wardrobe inside , just smaller than the room , that you can move from one end to the other end , what will happen to the air inside the room
The air will be displaced past the wardrobe from the left side of the room to the rh side .
Every time you move the wardrobe from right to left ,, the air in the room will be displaced to the right slipping past the wardrobe .

Now on, then left side of the wall , we have a fireplace , and on the rh side of the room we have a open freezer .

When the wardrobe , from now on called the displacer , is moved towards the rh side , all the air is now in contact with the fireplace. Heats up and expand , and the pressure inside the room increases proportional to the heat absorbed by the air .
We now move the displacer to the fireplace , all the air slips past the displacer and end up in contact with the freezer , cool down and contract by the same amount of energy lost to the freezer .The pressure inside the room will decrease .
Now we remove the only window in the room and cover it with a balloon .
Every time the pressure increases due to the displacement of cold air to the HOT side , the balloon ( from now on to be understood to be the working piston ) will inflate , (the displacer have moved to the cold side ) and every time the DISPLACER is moved to the HOT side , the air is now at the freezer , and the balloon will deflate .

We can now connect a connecting rod to the balloon and the other end to a crank pin to change the recipicle motion to rotary motion , and viola , you have a Sterling engine if you add the displacer to the crankshaft .

It does not matter if you use ice on one end ( the freezer ) and ambient temperature at the other end , as long as the temp gradient is large enough to inflate and deflate the balloon with enough force to overcome friction in the wheel to cause rotation .

If you don't have a temp difference at the 2 sides of the displacer , and you drive the engine with a motor , it will create a low temp at one end and a elevated temp at the other end ,

Air is not the best medium to use as a working fluid for the expansion off air is not as great as other gasses , where Nitrogen would be the worst .

The Sterling engine only converts the temp difference of the working medium into work , the energy is already manifested in the temp difference
daanopperman
Devotee
Devotee
Posts: 1546
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:43 pm

Post by daanopperman »

The energy you referring to in this case comes from ambient temperature
User avatar
Grimer
Addict
Addict
Posts: 5280
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:46 am
Location: Harrow, England
Contact:

Post by Grimer »

More specifically it comes from the ambient temperature of the air, the alpha-atmosphere.The air on the top plate cools down and gives its heat to the ice that the Sterling is seated on.

I am only using the Sterling as an analogy to point out that an environment (in this case the alpha-atmosphere) can be used as a sink for the energy of hot coffee, or a source of energy for a sink of cold ice.

I will be continuing to develop this thread on my forum. I have made it an open forum so that I can moderate posts. Anyone who want to join to contribute to this thread, let me know either here or by PM and I will include your name on the list of members.
Last edited by Grimer on Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Silvertiger
Devotee
Devotee
Posts: 1059
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2011 1:12 pm
Location: Henderson, KY

Re: Tenivgl vf gur fvax, abg gur fbhepr bs OrffyreJurry rare

Post by Silvertiger »

Grimer wrote:The 360° pendulum falls from 1°, say, and as it sweeps around its orbit transfers some of its energy to a rotating rim which speeds up. As the pendulum reaches 350°, say, enough energy is transferred back to take the pendulum over the top and repeat the cycle. The remaining energy is used to increase the speed of the rim.
You can't really talk about anything else beyond this, as your wheel won't behave this way. If the pendulum starts at one degree CW past zenith (90°) and contacts the wheel CW at 0°/360°, it won't even make it to 180°, let alone be carried back to the top. Yes, the contact will make the rim go from zero to some angular velocity, but this will also slow the pendulum by the exact same proportions.
Philosophy is the beginning of science; not the conclusion.
User avatar
Grimer
Addict
Addict
Posts: 5280
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:46 am
Location: Harrow, England
Contact:

re: Tenivgl vf gur fvax, abg gur fbhepr bs OrffyreJurry rare

Post by Grimer »

But the pendulum has both rotational kinetic energy (RKE) and precessional kinetic energy (PKE) at the bottom of its swing. The PKE is transduced to RKE
in the transfer to the rim and handed back in the form of RKE as the pendulum approaches its zenith.

See attachment for a graphical representation of precessional kinetic energy (PKE)

Unfortunately the first attachment broke the forum maximum size rule so it got edited down to a point where one can't read the axes.
To mitigate this I've attached a second image where the axes are just about readable.

Edit: My 14 year old computer wizard has now set me up with a server so now I don't need photobucket any more. :-)

Image

But I'll leave the attachments in place in case Singapore gets nuked.
Attachments
3RD_D_2B.jpg
3RD_D_2B4.jpg
Last edited by Grimer on Thu Oct 26, 2017 11:23 am, edited 5 times in total.
Who is she that cometh forth as the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terribilis ut castrorum acies ordinata?
User avatar
Silvertiger
Devotee
Devotee
Posts: 1059
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2011 1:12 pm
Location: Henderson, KY

Post by Silvertiger »

Funny...I don't recall a precession axis being mentioned in your previous posts. And you believe that making your wheel wobble will accomplish all this? Do bear in mind that gravity is conservative.
User avatar
raj
Addict
Addict
Posts: 2981
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 6:53 am
Location: Mauritius

re: Tenivgl vf gur fvax, abg gur fbhepr bs OrffyreJurry rare

Post by raj »

Although not in physics terms, I can get the gist of what Grimer is suggesting.

It is leading me to believe that what Grimer is proposing, is similar to what I am proposing with my auto wheel concept:
Some of Gravity downward pull force/energy on the downward side of the wheel, is being manipulated/circumvented as potential energy of the retracting springs, countering the downwards pull force/energy of gravity on the upwards side of the wheel.
Thereby enabling resetting.

Raj
Keep learning till the end.
User avatar
Grimer
Addict
Addict
Posts: 5280
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:46 am
Location: Harrow, England
Contact:

Post by Grimer »

Yep Raj. That's what it amounts to. One doesn't have to understand the physics. One can stumble upon it like Bessler did and Newcomen did for instance.

So the best of British luck in your endeavors. :-)
User avatar
Grimer
Addict
Addict
Posts: 5280
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:46 am
Location: Harrow, England
Contact:

Post by Grimer »

Silvertiger wrote:Funny...I don't recall a precession axis being mentioned in your previous posts. And you believe that making your wheel wobble will accomplish all this? Do bear in mind that gravity is conservative.
It's not a question of making the wheel wobble. The precession motion is present in the 360° pendulum in the form of strain energy. This is manifested externally by the changing RKE.

The PKE is hidden as internal strain energy in a flywheel rotating at constant velocity but it can be made manifest by slicing the flywheel in two thereby releasing the strain energy that holds the two halves together.

Now there are two offset gyros on stub axles. These will then manifest precession by rotating around their respective bearings, one clockwise and one anticlockwise. Angular momentum is conserved.
Who is she that cometh forth as the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terribilis ut castrorum acies ordinata?
User avatar
Silvertiger
Devotee
Devotee
Posts: 1059
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2011 1:12 pm
Location: Henderson, KY

Post by Silvertiger »

Grimer...that isn't precession. That is just rotation of two parallel bodies about two collinear axes separated by a gap of some preset distance. Precession by definition must involve the rotation of an object about a second axis that does not share the same angle as the primary. It is predicated on the fact that since the orientation of the primary axis is constantly changing, the resultant must therefore yield a second axis of rotation, and therefore both axes must be connected to each other at some non-collinear point. Your description meets neither of these criteria, at least not from what you have shared. :)

The use of two counter-rotating flywheels will only give your pendulum's motion a half-wave rectification biased in the reverse direction in which it starts its fall. Instead of completing a full swing it will complete two half-swings, assuming that it hits on flywheel on its way down and is picked up by the counter-rotating fywheel. You are correct in one regard: angular momentum will be conserved. And because of this, the pendulum will still never make it past the zenith.
Post Reply