Generating more meaningful debate

[Robinhood46]

I tried something like that already but found that for the inner wheel to tilt it needed to turn a considerable amount more, which took away the advantage of the inner wheel with it's mass being nearly permanently over to one side .
Maybe there is some way of playing with the curves to gain an advantage but I have not managed to solve that problem.

[Sam Peppiatt]

Robinhood46,

Just waving my arms around here, how about a spring? The inner wheel would roll,(if that's the right word), over a spring of some kind that would lift up on the back part of the flat to re tip it, so to speak.

It's own weight would compress the spring, then help to tip it, maybe.

Maybe sleepy is right, raj has tried a lot of things----------with inner wheels.

Sam

[Robinhood46]

Its worth a try, finding the correct tension,length and position may be a bit difficult. My doubt is that the compression of the spring would affect the tilt (or roll if you prefer), if I gain a degree or two when the roll starts it could be positive. I can't picture exactly what consequences it would have on the roll,although my first impression is that it could well have only a positive effect. Or at least the negative effect may well be negligible.
It needs some thinking about.
I sent a private message to Raj but have no reply yet.
Thanks
Robin

[rlortie]

Having been a member here since 2005 and as CEO of a philanthropic group
physically researching ideas, rest assured that this is not new!

A wheel within a wheel, regardless of its shape and COM or COB will not maintain OB within an outer wheel!

Ralph

[raj]

Hello Robinhood46.

I have replied your PM.

Wheel inside a wheel is a plausible concept, if only latency of motion of inner wheel is somehow eliminated.

Below is a drawing of a weights torque driven inner wheel, to beat lalency of motion to make it move ahead of the larger wheel.


Raj

[Robinhood46]

Hi,
Thanks for reply, I can clearly see that you have tried many variations of "hamster wheel". My latest attempt I find promising (see photos above). When i increase the quantity of sand in cans the inner wheel tips well and gives a substantial gain, my problem being that the external wheel no longer turns because ( i hope ) of it sitting on a used jockey wheel from a timing belt change and kept vertical by means of bearings at 9 and 3 o'clock, it also has bearings front and back to stop it falling backwards or forwards at 12, 3 6 and 9 o'clock. It is rather a shabby set up, which can obviously be improved. I have ordered cheap bearings from China which should be here around the 20 / 11. I am hoping that with the external wheel turning on a central axle it will be better.
Have you ever tried using a pendulum to keep the inner wheel out of center?
I can picture a long pendulum fixed independently of both wheels say 10/15 cms above top arc of inner wheel with weight hang down to bottom of outer wheel. Timing will be a bit difficult admittedly but my hope is that when the pendulum swings to the right, the force from leverage would encourage inner wheel to tilt, which certainly doesn't need a lot of displacement, as you have surely found yourself. With a spring to avoid the shock of pendulum in a negative direction on outer wheel and the outer rim of outer wheel reloading the weight of pendulum for next stroke. Could the gain created by the tilt of inner wheel be greater than the loss of pushing pendulum to reload. I think it is worth trying personally. I think it very likely that the speed with which it needs to do this would be the biggest obstacle.
Robin

[Sam Peppiatt]

Robinhood46,

What's obvious to me, and apparently to no one else on this forum; if you look at raj's drawing with eight weights, put them on 4 sliders, reset them every half revolution that wheel will turn.

It's as simple as that---------------------

Sam Peppiatt

[Robinhood46]

It is very similar to what I have build, the photos are no good admittedly.
The major difference being instead of the weights sticking out one side and coming in the other, mine just move laterally. I find that lifting vertically is more difficult. I have doubts about what can be gained by lifting vertical, is more than the cost of lifting. Moving the weights on sliders from 9 to 3 I have tried many times without much joy. And lifting from 6 vertically I've never made any progress whatsoever. If bessler really did lift weights at great speed I really haven't got the faintest idea how.
Ralph,
until we know where the flaw is in the laws,theories and knowledge of modern scientists we must accept that we have to doubt all of them.
Robin

[Sam Peppiatt]

Robinhood46,

Have you tried springs? The slider, with it's weights, should be some what heavier than the strength of the spring. So that when the slider is more or less vertical, the spring is fully extended. When the slider has rotated to a 45 degree angle it forms a ramp with a mechanical advantage of about 2 to 1. Now, with the MA of the ramp, the spring is strong enough to start lifting the slider back up. The closer it gets to horizontal the easier it gets, so that by the time it reaches horizontal, the slider will be fully reset to the right, (for CW rotation).

Are you with me so far?

Sam

[Robinhood46]

Sam,
Just to make sure that I get you.
A rod with a weight at each end, on or close to the center of the inner wheel is a pin with 2 coil springs, one in each direction. When a weight is at 6 o'clock the spring is under tension and when at 7.30 the spring is able to assist the sliding of rod which moves one weight nearer to center and one further. And when the opposite weight reaches 6 o'clock it's the other spring which does the same. ?
Robin

[Sam Peppiatt]

Robinhood46,

Yes, that's it, exactly as you described. But, the most difficult thing to imagine, for me at least, is when a slider retests to the right, the pin or mounting point of the spring has to shift to the left, at the horizontal position.

Because, when the lower spring is starting to lift the slider up, the upper spring has to release. I know it's a bitch, but that's what has to happen.

If they both stay fastened at the center pin, the springs fight each other, so that you can't get enough shift, or reset. You can prove that it will work by using only two springs, but then it's like it's only running on two cylinders, and will rotate only 270 degrees.

The pin, has to shift back and forth as the sliders slide back and forth; still don't know how to do that.

Have to run, Sam

[Sam Peppiatt]

Robinhood46,

By putting the pin, or mounting point of the springs, on the short end of a weighted bell crank, it shifts it back and forth as need, as the wheel turns.

But then it has to hold, or latch, for about 170 degrees, while the one spring is lifting. And that's what makes it difficult.

The shift has to take place about 5 degrees before and after horizontal when there is't any load on the springs

Sam

[Robinhood46]

Sam,
A few years back I did build an attempt with a mechanism similar, at the time, as has been all of my attempts other than the one in the photos, I was using a very reasonably balanced wheel of between 60 cm and 80 cm. For many attempts I used a very heavy wheel, hoping to use the weight of the wheels movement to gain the degree our two necessary to reload. I had some sort of lever that was spring loaded to do the moving. To be honest I cannot remember exactly how I did it and I do not keep records of anything (probably not very wise admittedly). I have done something that we all know bessler did. I've dismantled all my machines as well, unfortunately not for the same reason. Mine didn't bloody work and I needed the parts for the next edition of my book " how to waste time and money and send yourself completely round the twist ".
Now that I have realised that although making something much bigger doesn't have an effect on if a principle will work or not, it certainly makes it easier to construct mechanisms incorporated within. It also appears to have the advantage of reducing the accuracy needed to have positive results.
1 mm here and 1.5 mm there is about the most accurate I can work with given materiels, obviously with engineered parts it would not be the same. The 2 m diameter wheel is less affected than the small ones.
When my bearings finally arrive and I can build a large wheel that will be reasonably balanced I dare say I will try again with many methods that I had already given up on.
Back to the drawing board as they say.
Robin

[Sam Peppiatt]

Robin,

You should keep a log book. This will be my 55th year; no way I could remember every thing I've tried. And I do the same thing, when it doesn't work I rip it apart and through it on the bone pile. You wouldn't believe the iron I've ruined.

Anyway, good luck with the new bearing they will make a big difference. What if the top of the pendulum was offset to one side-------------

Sam

[Robinhood46]

Sorry sam, you lost me,
What do you refer to as the pendulum ?
Robin