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raj
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:58 am    Post subject: re: Energy Exchange Reply with quote Report Post to Admin

@Grimmer.

You are absolutely right.

Asymmetry of motion is the way to go!!!

So sang:

Johnny Tillotson : Poetry in Motion 1960

Raj



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Grimer
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:22 am    Post subject: re: Energy Exchange Reply with quote Report Post to Admin

Indeed it is - and it's the way I went. :-)

I see you have internet explorer and Windows 10. I'm still on Windows 7 on the basis that if it ain't bust don't fix it.

I 'spose I'll have to make the change some time. :-(

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOBOOzN7UTk





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rlortie
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:08 pm    Post subject: re: Energy Exchange Reply with quote Report Post to Admin

Grimer,

@ ALL!

Please consider my advice! Stay with "windows 7" as long as Microsoft supports and keeps upgrading it.

I made the mistake of upgrading to "Windows 10" and found it great if you want to be inundated with multi-media, and junk! lost a lot of folders, documents and all e-mail addresses and pertinent data. Worst of all, I lost whole albums containing my research and collaboration files regarding my own design and build.

Took my desktop PC back to the local computer geek, after he got done severely chastising me, had him restore my Windows 7.

IMO Windows 7 using Mozilla Firefox is the best Microsoft has to offer for desk top researchers such as you and I.

Ralph


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Grimer






PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:41 pm    Post subject: re: Energy Exchange Reply with quote Report Post to Admin

Thanks for the advice Ralph. Much appreciated.


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Sam Peppiatt
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:03 pm    Post subject: re: Energy Exchange Reply with quote Report Post to Admin

Gill,

Why do you say, a continually over balanced wheel is impossible?
In't far more likely that we don't know how to do it; and that maybe Bessler did find a way.

Sam Peppiatt


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agor95
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:02 pm    Post subject: re: Energy Exchange Reply with quote Report Post to Admin

@rlortie

It is really bad your records have been damaged/lost to upgrading.
I keep my data on an external hard drive.

That means when an update happens the data is disconnected and safe.

The great library of Alexandria had a 21st century version.
It was your system.



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:58 pm    Post subject: re: Energy Exchange Reply with quote Report Post to Admin

Sam,

Why do you say, a continually over balanced wheel isn't impossible?
Isn't it far more likely that we know we can't do it; and that therefore Bessler must have employed some other way?

Please correct me if I'm wrong but offer Gravity a single, fixed, point in its field & its only task is to allot weight to any mass connected around that point & balance it at that point....meaning, surely, that one could fill a wheel with any conceivable mechanism, available in all of God's Creation....& Gravity is gonna see a fixed point, with mass around to which it will allot weight & then balance it around that fixed point.
Seems as though folk are bewitched by gravity's ability to make stuff move but its only making that stuff move 'cos its only intent is to balance it...& it always gets its way.

Bessler doesn't elude to gravity, imbalance, overbalance, or the like as far as I'm aware. Quite the opposite, he appears to state that his `wheel` is driven by a perpetual motion, a motion that weights are engaged in & a motion that conforms to the conditions required for that motion to self perpetuate.
Whatever those conditions are, they will relate to motion, not Gravity...although it will, of course & as ever, allot weight, a single fixed point & balance around it.
Yes, Bessler states that weights are prevented from reaching there CofG & must therefore constantly seek it but it's to do with motion, not gravity....most obvious being that there CofG is constantly moving...in motion.....an axle that in its turn must also move....perhaps.
Hence the question re the flail in motion...if weight turning around a single point could, in that turning, induce a flail of the single point it turns around, would it self perpetuate?



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Grimer






PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Report Post to Admin

It seems to me that the yoyo action is a continuously overbalanced wheel.

Think about it.

You have a string which is continuously applying a leverage which is "tipping up the disk like a man tipping up a huge watermelon from a tiny wheelbarrow.

If I were any good at drawing I'd make a cartoon of it. :-)




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rlortie






PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:49 am    Post subject: re: Energy Exchange Reply with quote Report Post to Admin

There are two versions of a "Flail"... Which one do you think Bessler was referring to?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flail

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flail_(weapon)


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Sam Peppiatt






PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:52 am    Post subject: re: Energy Exchange Reply with quote Report Post to Admin

Hi Gill,

You lost me! My simple mind can't grasp it-----------what you are saying.
Whats the fixed point? Whats aloted gravity? You say it's always balanced. I don't get that--------or flailing. My level of understanding is just too low,sorry.

Sam


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Grimer






PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Report Post to Admin

Grimer wrote:
It seems to me that the yoyo action is a continuously overbalanced wheel.

Think about it.

You have a string which is continuously applying a leverage which is "tipping up the disk like a man tipping up a huge watermelon from a tiny wheelbarrow.

If I were any good at drawing I'd make a cartoon of it. :-)


Sam Peppiatt wrote:
Gill,

Why do you say, a continually over balanced wheel is impossible?
Isn't far more likely that we don't know how to do it; and that maybe Bessler did find a way.

Sam Peppiatt


But we do know how to do it, Sam. The yoyo action does it as I'm sure you will soon appreciate if you think about it. :-)


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Grimer






PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:01 pm    Post subject: Re: re: Energy Exchange Reply with quote Report Post to Admin

Gill Simo wrote:
Sam,

Why do you say, a continually over balanced wheel isn't impossible?
Isn't it far more likely that we know we can't do it; and that therefore Bessler must have employed some other way?

Please correct me if I'm wrong but offer Gravity a single, fixed, point in its field & its only task is to allot weight to any mass connected around that point & balance it at that point....meaning, surely, that one could fill a wheel with any conceivable mechanism, available in all of God's Creation....& Gravity is gonna see a fixed point, with mass around to which it will allot weight & then balance it around that fixed point.
Seems as though folk are bewitched by gravity's ability to make stuff move but its only making that stuff move 'cos its only intent is to balance it...& it always gets its way.

Bessler doesn't elude to gravity, imbalance, overbalance, or the like as far as I'm aware. Quite the opposite, he appears to state that his `wheel` is driven by a perpetual motion, a motion that weights are engaged in & a motion that conforms to the conditions required for that motion to self perpetuate.
Whatever those conditions are, they will relate to motion, not Gravity...although it will, of course & as ever, allot weight, a single fixed point & balance around it.
Yes, Bessler states that weights are prevented from reaching there CofG & must therefore constantly seek it but it's to do with motion, not gravity....most obvious being that there CofG is constantly moving...in motion.....an axle that in its turn must also move....perhaps.
Hence the question re the flail in motion...if weight turning around a single point could, in that turning, induce a flail of the single point it turns around, would it self perpetuate?


A flail amplifies the energy by a shearing action between the circular motion of the long section and the circular motion of the short section.

This is essentially the same as the action of the yoyo.

I didn't know that Bessler referred to the action of a flail - but if he did he put his finger on the source of the energy in his wheel.


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Grimer






PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:15 pm    Post subject: re: Energy Exchange Reply with quote Report Post to Admin

Free energy generated by shearing action has already been mentioned in another thread. I reproduce the relevant post below.

There in nothing new under the sun, eh!

Grimer wrote:
Here is an example of energy generation by horizontal shear between media.

Basic mechanism of Dynamic Soaring

While different flight patterns can be employed in dynamic soaring, the simplest example to explain the energy extraction mechanism is a closed loop across the boundary layer between two air masses in relative movement. The gain in speed can be explained in terms of airspeed or ground speed:

The glider gains airspeed twice during the loop, when it pierces the boundary layer at an acute angle. Since the 180 turns retain most of the airspeed the glider completes the loop within the initial air mass at a higher airspeed.
The gain in groundspeed occurs when the glider performs a 180 downwind turn within the moving airmass. Since the opposite 180 turn is done within the stationary airmass the groundspeed gain is not reversed.
The energy is extracted by reducing the velocity difference between the two airmasses during the 180 turns which accelerate air in opposite directions.
The following animation is a simplification of what actually happens.




In practice, there is a turbulent mixing layer between the moving and stationary air masses. In addition, drag forces are continually slowing the plane once it has crossed the shear layer, so the airspeed gained by crossing the boundary is not all retained through the 180 turns. Higher speed gives rise to higher drag forces, so there is a maximum speed that can be attained, typically around 10 times the wind speed for efficient glider designs.


Dynamic Soaring Loop

When seabirds perform dynamic soaring, the wind gradients are much less pronounced, so the energy extraction is comparably smaller. And instead of doing circles as glider pilots do, the birds will execute a series of half circles in opposite directions. For instance, a bird may begin by climbing though the gradient while facing into the increasing wind to gain airspeed, and then make a 180 turn (say) clockwise. This would be followed by a dive back down through the gradient, again increasing its airspeed as it moves into slower air at lower altitude. The cycle would then be completed by making an anti-clockwise turn at low altitude to face back into the wind. This has the effect of transporting the bird laterally to the wind, so it can travel cross wind indefinitely by continuing to execute this maneuver.

There is some speed lost during the climb, as the bird trades speed for altitude, and some speed gained by diving as the reverse happens. Throughout all of this, drag tends to slow the bird, so dynamic soaring is a delicate tradeoff between speed lost to drag, and speed gained by climbing further upward in the wind gradient. At some point, climbing higher carries no additional benefit, as the wind gradient lessens with altitude.


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Sam Peppiatt






PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:50 pm    Post subject: re: Energy Exchange Reply with quote Report Post to Admin

Grimmer,

Perhaps I misunderstood the topic--------------OK, the frail whips around, and you get an exchange of energy. I'm starting to catch on to that, and I guess it's true.

I see what you mean by the yo-Yo. I think you are correct it is a form of an over balanced wheel. But nether one can keep going; indefinitely. I feel that the OOB wheel has the best chance of succeeding. Although, admittedly it has been elusive.

Maybe I'm getting off topic, which I have been accused of before.

Sam


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:10 pm    Post subject: re: Energy Exchange Reply with quote Report Post to Admin

Grimer wrote:
It seems to me that the yoyo action is a continuously overbalanced wheel.

Think about it.

So there I was, thinking about yo-yo's....


It depends on what you mean by "overbalance " for such yo-yo.
I suspect it is not as out of balance as one may observe.

This is my hypothesis:
The obvious way to view such "(over-)balance" is that the yo-yo's Center of Gravity is offset from the vertical where the string is hold: the "center line".

So a yo-yo starts visually "out of balance" when it unrolls down and alongside the string.
It can never find that visual balance (center line) during the drop because that's exactly the action of unwinding.
It cannot drop onto that center line because that means it should swing a tiny bit sideways with more rotational velocity it currently has to satisfy that path: so why should it?
Such needed roll-action is already used to make it both drop and create the self-torqued spin. It doesn't have more, perhaps it has less due to friction.

That center-line comes into view once it gets to the end of the string where the yo-yo almost stops its vertical drop. Only at this last bit the yo-yo is really out-of balance from this center-line because the string's-end is now a pivot for the yo-yo and so only now it can swing around the bottom of the wire because of the relative increase in rotation against its translation along the sting.
I suspect this 180 degree turn should create some whip effect because that out-of-balance now makes it a pendulum along that center-line, (still) pivoting around the end of the string.

I'm not yet sure if the yo-yo now (a) either tries to 'find' this center line on its way up, or (b) keeps swinging outwards like and on a shrinking pendulum, or (c) a combination of both... I lean towards option (c) with perhaps more (b) than (a), but I'd have to test it.

...
Perhaps a much simpler way of viewing the yo-yo is to compare it to a pullstart outboard motor. (We all know boats, lawnmowers and other things are all powerstarted by yo-yo's)
When viewing the yo-yo in an accelerated frame of reference that yo-yo is then alike the recoil unit of the pull starter (but without the recoil spring) where the one holding the yo-yo cord seems like to pull it and in this frame provides a fictitious force. Sure, you have to start somewhere.

Had video's running in the background anyway, so because winter is coming for us Northern Hemispherians, here's a repair video for when things don't blow: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DA5V1CdQ2hQ
I really hope gravity will not get compared to wind... that would really suck.



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