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raj
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:38 am    Post subject: Familiarity breeds contempt... Reply with quote Report Post to Admin

Does familiarity to PHYSICS breed contempt for PERPETUAL motion seekers?

Raj



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ME
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:20 pm    Post subject: re: Familiarity breeds contempt... Reply with quote Report Post to Admin

NASA dude: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1NpWo9s92A

I guess [link] your Autowheel is being refused an investigation without even looking?



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Last edited by ME on Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:13 pm; edited 1 time in total. (2 percent)
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ME






PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:27 pm    Post subject: re: Familiarity breeds contempt... Reply with quote Report Post to Admin

The only way to satisfy your own curiosity: build it yourself for for real.

Please keep in mind that Perpetual Motion should come as a surprise to the whole scientific community. Where one claims "professionalism" the other may see "contempt".
Why? It violates the whole mathematical foundation of science: thermodynamics. It gets confirmed each and every time machines (or other things) operate, and a perpetual motion design does not... That's millions, billions, trillions, etc of non-self-energy-replenishing things versus one that might do.

So you need three things in this order:

  1. Know the (current) laws of thermodynamics; (what is it exactly you'll need you break)
  2. Know a way to break the laws of thermodynamics (a real build !!);
  3. Know a way to present (2) for the ones who are stuck at (1).


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raj






PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:41 pm    Post subject: re: Familiarity breeds contempt... Reply with quote Report Post to Admin

Hello Marcello,

A big thank for your first post link.
That's what, I, as a layman, call logical reasoning.

Just to let you know my Auto Wheel project is moving forward just fine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?=9SzLcBbi7_c

Your second post does not answer my question in the logical way I expect.
My question is a general question in general sense.
You have tried to attached it only to me personally, about what "I" personally think and do.

Thank you anyway.

Raj


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ME






PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:20 pm    Post subject: re: Familiarity breeds contempt... Reply with quote Report Post to Admin

Quote:
Your second post does not answer my question in the logical way I expect.
My question is a general question in general sense.
You have tried to attached it only to me personally, about what "I" personally think and do.

The short: Yes it does, not it isn't, no I didn't, I don't know... :-)

Your question didn't come from logic, but from emotional point of view. Logically "contempt" indicates a issue of status or power.
From the other perspective the topic title reads: "Experience brings professionalism..."
The answer to this is "Yes". The answer to your variant is: It may seem that way, but PHYSICS is not specifically designed to annoy PERPETUAL motion seekers".

Because I think these are useless answers on themselves, the follow-up is: "and now what?"
Hence post no.2: That "you" is also a "generic you"... me included.

For all of us here the current definition of thermodynamics sucks, and that is what makes Perpetual Motion research hard.
As mr. Garvin perfectly explained, those "laws" exist because of 'our' currently 'agreed' understanding of nature and the universe. Not because a bunch of PHYSICS-dudes thought it was funny.
But whatever perspective, the curiosity for understanding is all the same.
"Contempt" can be found everywhere, but such is not about understanding nor about science (including PHYSICS).

And then:
All this just means that altering the laws of thermodynamics is hard.... extremely hard. Or perhaps easy... but as an extreme unlikely exception.


Your link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SzLcBbi7_c


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raj






PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:36 am    Post subject: re: Familiarity breeds contempt... Reply with quote Report Post to Admin

@ Marcello.
Do you really think that whoever is working on PM concept, is decidedly trying to break the laws of thermodynamics, as his main objective? Therefore his attempt should be considered frivolous.

I do believe that IN GENERAL, familiarity to physics breed contempt for PMM seekers.

A physicist, looking at a PMM CONCEPT, no matter how well presented, will always start by doing all he can to prove that the concept won't work, using all formulas he can use in his calculation to disprove the concept.
He will NEVER or SELDOM, try to look at how the concept could work or could be MADE TO WORK.
His priority is to prove the concept wrong.

No wonder, making the laws of thermodynamics as SACROSANCT, countries of the world DO NOT accept a PMM patent application.

Raj


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:35 am    Post subject: re: Familiarity breeds contempt... Reply with quote Report Post to Admin

Raj wrote:
A physicist, looking at a PMM CONCEPT, no matter how well presented, will always start by doing all he can to prove that the concept won't work...


A physicist will usually start by doing all he can to discover where YOU went wrong. The tendency of PMM seekers to build complex fantasy on simple mistakes might be held in contempt by some. Perhaps justifiably so.



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Gregory
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:43 pm    Post subject: Re: re: Familiarity breeds contempt... Reply with quote Report Post to Admin

raj wrote:

A physicist, looking at a PMM CONCEPT, no matter how well presented, will always start by doing all he can to prove that the concept won't work, using all formulas he can use in his calculation to disprove the concept.
Raj


And if he can't prove it wrong, then the concept will be validated.
Why is that a problem? Doesn't it logical?


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ovaron
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:55 pm    Post subject: re: Familiarity breeds contempt... Reply with quote Report Post to Admin

It is very easy to prove a concept. No physicist or mathematician is needed. Just build it and the proof is done.

BTW we are looking for something that is considered impossible. That's why it's useless to question physicists. Only when you have a working concept then it may be useful to consult a physicist or mathematician to prove why it works.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:15 pm    Post subject: re: Familiarity breeds contempt... Reply with quote Report Post to Admin

My apology for having started this thread,

The point I was trying to make through this debate is why physicists in general take perpetual motion seekers as CRACKPOTS, if not just to show contempt of the seekers attempt as futile.

Raj




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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Report Post to Admin

raj,

I think this is a good thread and that there is no need to apologize for it.

It may even give me a chance to rant a little bit later.


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ME






PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:44 pm    Post subject: re: Familiarity breeds contempt... Reply with quote Report Post to Admin

Quote:
My apology for having started this thread,

Why?
You posed a great provocative statement, and I think extremely relevant and interesting.
Are we really crackpots, do physicists really live in a high tower... Is it true, or what can we do about it...

It touches why we do what we do, and what we think or do when things don't do what we thought they should do.... Perhaps you did not exactly aim for this kind of soul-searching with your opening statement but at least that's what I thought you intended to do. Nevertheless, the fact we may not totally agree just makes it interesting... Sorry, my bad.

I really look forward to Furcurequs's rant :-)


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Gregory






PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Report Post to Admin

I think some physicists would be very quick to jump and debunk the concept in a minute. Also lots of physicist would think that if I take an overbalanced wheel design to them for analysis, then I must be a nutjob for sure. I agree that most physics guys can sound very arrogant and harsh at times, and it is a possibility that sometimes they make mistakes, or mistakenly try to disprove something what is actually a workable idea. But in average this scenario just rarely happens, and the opposite is true most of the time, especially when the subject is some well-known or simple phenomena.

On the other hand, the greatest pitfall of scientists comes from their assumptions and habits. People can make dozens of assumptions and blindly follow habits, and this can dangerious. Scientists are no different, and wrong assumptions combined with a lot of clever theory and genious math can still lead to wrong conclusions and worthless trash. We could say: Be aware what assumptions you make, or let enslaved by them.

Another interesting phylisophical aspect is the quote from Shunryu Suzuki:
"In the beginnerís mind there are many possibilities, but in the expertís there are few"

I think this quote has different levels of truth and understanding encoded in it.

1./ The beginner can produce a lot of unusual or new idea, and try to combine thousand of possibilities he can come up with. There is a chance that he can ponder on something never tried before. These are the pros for the beginner, and the cons is that he has little understanding and experience, and for sure he will try a lot of foolish things as well, what the expert would dismiss in a second.

2./ The expert has a lot of experience and deep understanding of different subjects, so he will never try foolish things, because he knows that those can never work. He is precise, and if smells something fresh will instantly jump on it and take it into pieces by all means of analysis and experiments. These were the pros, and the cons are that he can be too much fixed in his viewpoint, and always start by trying to debunk things, basically for some extent become enslaved by all the knowledge he knows. So, he will not think as much originally by himself, but only repeat what he knows from memory. His creativity might drop, and these things all together can lead to arrogance and a kind of "grayness".

Who is more right then, the expert or the beginner?

And I think the answer is not one of them...
Instead, try to be like both. Now, usually creativity and analytical power don't come hand in hand, or don't fit together really well. People are usually either creative and extravagant like an artist/painter/musician, or an analytical and introverted mind instead, but very unlikely to be both types together.

But actually that would be what is needed, to be high on pure logic and analytical power, and the same time also high on odd, sparkling, and colorful creativity. That's why our greatest scientist could think about and achieve wonderful things, they superseeded both the expert and the beginner, and even thousands of experts and beginners (ordinary people) together. This is how Einstein could find the contradiction and come up with a solution, so relativity was born. Or Tesla threw out the commutators, and came up with a rotating magnetic field. These things for example were totally original, kind of unimaginable, even for some of the scientists of the time.

Rigorous Analysis + Sprakling Creativity = New and Original things.

It is possible for one to teach or force himself to think this way. So, learn as much as he can, be scientific as much as possible, yet keep his creativity high. It's very hard, but not impossible.

However, this kind of personality and mindset, especially in those who born with it, comes at a price. These people can more easily have personality defects and different mental illnesses. Let's just mention Boltzmann for example. He believed in atoms and predicted some of their properties, and also had a unique view on thermodynamics and the transfer of heat. He had problems with severe depression though, and his ideas met with criticism. In 1906 on vacation he hanged himself while his family was on the beach.

Well, that was my point of view...

P.S.: Make no mistake, if I were to take a classic PM wheel design to any great scientist... even the friendliest ones would think I am a total fool, and for a reason...


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Sam Peppiatt
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:33 pm    Post subject: re: Familiarity breeds contempt... Reply with quote Report Post to Admin

raj,

You are absolutely right! Bessler is proof of it. They have tried to keep him buried for 300 years, and he would still be buried, if it wasn't for John Collins.

They have such an enormous advantage over us. Unlimited budgets, equipment, people to do all of the work and on and on. Yet all they can do is crap on anyone who tries to figure out a way to do it.

Here is another example. It was 17 years before I learned of Collins book, probably one of the most important book ever written!

Anyway,I hope you, or someone, can prove the bastards wrong!!

Sam Peppiatt


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:03 pm    Post subject: re: Familiarity breeds contempt... Reply with quote Report Post to Admin

Remember that once it is found, they'll just change the definition to make it "impossible" again. Wouldn't be the first time... ;-)



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