T-Pendulum and Single Bar
Moderator: scott
T-Pendulum and Single Bar
While investigating the action of a single bar in my sim; I had this notion.
A bar naturally has a variable rotation rate.
The rotation energy is from the drop in Center of Mass.
As the Center of Mass returns to it's original position the rotation rate drops to zero. However there is a little movement that exists that was not present in the original start position.
If that was combined with a T-Pendulum they could interact and cause some positive effect.
Having another unit on the other side would be next.
The hub rotation of the wheel I suggest not directly coupled with these two components. Think of a spring pulling on the wheel frame.
However the first notion were I will be for sum time.
Lets keep it simple. That is complex as it is.
A bar naturally has a variable rotation rate.
The rotation energy is from the drop in Center of Mass.
As the Center of Mass returns to it's original position the rotation rate drops to zero. However there is a little movement that exists that was not present in the original start position.
If that was combined with a T-Pendulum they could interact and cause some positive effect.
Having another unit on the other side would be next.
The hub rotation of the wheel I suggest not directly coupled with these two components. Think of a spring pulling on the wheel frame.
However the first notion were I will be for sum time.
Lets keep it simple. That is complex as it is.
[MP] Mobiles that perpetuate - external energy allowed
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- Devotee
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re: T-Pendulum and Single Bar
Hi AGOR95,
I think you should try this in your simulation Programm.
Depending on the yellow weights the result will be
1. a normal swing as a pendulum
2. a fallover Pendulum, here is the Point that energy must be extracted to allow the re-swing
I think you should try this in your simulation Programm.
Depending on the yellow weights the result will be
1. a normal swing as a pendulum
2. a fallover Pendulum, here is the Point that energy must be extracted to allow the re-swing
Best regards
Georg
Georg
re: T-Pendulum and Single Bar
To keep it simple, this sentence shows the basis of your premise.agor95 wrote:However there is a little movement that exists that was not present in the original start position.
What do you mean by "little movement"?
How does it move, and by how much, could you quantify this amount or just show?
Just curious.
Marchello E.
-- May the force lift you up. In case it doesn't, try something else.---
-- May the force lift you up. In case it doesn't, try something else.---
re: T-Pendulum and Single Bar
Hi Georg
There are two paths
1. Simulating the Pendula.
2. Simulate your mass spring unit.
There are two paths
1. Simulating the Pendula.
2. Simulate your mass spring unit.
[MP] Mobiles that perpetuate - external energy allowed
re: T-Pendulum and Single Bar
Hi ME
The last 30 minutes illustration on the M.Turbine site
has a small amount of vibration.
So at this time I am trying reducing that small vibration.
Also looking for a continuous spring strength change.
I am checking out boards around the wheel seeing how
the dynamics change.
The last 30 minutes illustration on the M.Turbine site
has a small amount of vibration.
So at this time I am trying reducing that small vibration.
Also looking for a continuous spring strength change.
I am checking out boards around the wheel seeing how
the dynamics change.
[MP] Mobiles that perpetuate - external energy allowed
re: T-Pendulum and Single Bar
Agor, I thought you wanted to keep it simple?
Your demonstration shows complex behavior where basically the whole setup is a group-effort with some (complex) frequency response.
But you where "investigating the action of a single bar", and trying to go from there.
It seems to me that it's important to first investigate how this "little motion" occurred in your known situation, and if it can be isolated from the group and replicated in a less complex environment, before expecting its performance somewhere else in a yet unknown situation.
That's what I think.
Your demonstration shows complex behavior where basically the whole setup is a group-effort with some (complex) frequency response.
But you where "investigating the action of a single bar", and trying to go from there.
It seems to me that it's important to first investigate how this "little motion" occurred in your known situation, and if it can be isolated from the group and replicated in a less complex environment, before expecting its performance somewhere else in a yet unknown situation.
That's what I think.
Marchello E.
-- May the force lift you up. In case it doesn't, try something else.---
-- May the force lift you up. In case it doesn't, try something else.---
re: T-Pendulum and Single Bar
Your thoughts are reasonable.
Do you not see the simplicity?
There is only one bar in the simulator.
I have kept it simple by getting the simulator to create three more.
That is less complex then creating a T-pendula and combining it to one bar.
The illustration of four bars with it's evolving complexity is a side effect.
The point is making a way to present the results on the web.
I am stress testing the tech'.
You must admit it's cool technology.
Note. When the device is running at 27 RPM the "little motion" go away.
good luck in your research
Do you not see the simplicity?
There is only one bar in the simulator.
I have kept it simple by getting the simulator to create three more.
That is less complex then creating a T-pendula and combining it to one bar.
The illustration of four bars with it's evolving complexity is a side effect.
The point is making a way to present the results on the web.
I am stress testing the tech'.
You must admit it's cool technology.
Note. When the device is running at 27 RPM the "little motion" go away.
good luck in your research
[MP] Mobiles that perpetuate - external energy allowed
re: T-Pendulum and Single Bar
At some point I will have to stop playing with the simulator and get real.
That means putting down some physical details that can be built.
However that is not know.
That means putting down some physical details that can be built.
However that is not know.
[MP] Mobiles that perpetuate - external energy allowed
re: T-Pendulum and Single Bar
Hi ME
This is the one bar version running at 150 degrees per minute [25 RHM].
The rod is 4.5 by 0.05 metres. 274Kg
The masses are 0.5 by 0.25 metres. 761kg
Density = 750 kg/m^3
base spring strength 5,000.0 * 40 N/m 'K'
I have a hard stop 1.3 metre displacement.
The sim is running with Delta T of 0.0001 second
This is the one bar version running at 150 degrees per minute [25 RHM].
The rod is 4.5 by 0.05 metres. 274Kg
The masses are 0.5 by 0.25 metres. 761kg
Density = 750 kg/m^3
base spring strength 5,000.0 * 40 N/m 'K'
I have a hard stop 1.3 metre displacement.
The sim is running with Delta T of 0.0001 second
[MP] Mobiles that perpetuate - external energy allowed
re: T-Pendulum and Single Bar
ME
I have taken your points and have cloned the sim.
Reduce the size and weights to be more practical.
Rod 0.9 by 0.015 metres.
Masses 0.1 by 0.05 metres.
Density 0.8 kg/m^3
Spring Strength 1.5 N per metre.
This strength is changed by a factor 0.25 or 1.0.
This is triggered when the rod is near the center mark or the displacement is greater than 0.2 metres.
I have taken your points and have cloned the sim.
Reduce the size and weights to be more practical.
Rod 0.9 by 0.015 metres.
Masses 0.1 by 0.05 metres.
Density 0.8 kg/m^3
Spring Strength 1.5 N per metre.
This strength is changed by a factor 0.25 or 1.0.
This is triggered when the rod is near the center mark or the displacement is greater than 0.2 metres.
[MP] Mobiles that perpetuate - external energy allowed
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re: T-Pendulum and Single Bar
Hi Agor - really not trying to be a pesky mosquito towards your project but could you explain the advantage you expect to gain from the springs?
When the rod slides, the lower spring extends giving up stored energy. But the opposite spring compresses requiring energy to be put into the spring.
All I see is a one for one tradeoff. Where is there any advantage here? What I see is that the springs cause a reduction in distance the weights will slide, reducing torque, never mind the energy lost to heat compressing and extending the springs.
What am I missing?
When the rod slides, the lower spring extends giving up stored energy. But the opposite spring compresses requiring energy to be put into the spring.
All I see is a one for one tradeoff. Where is there any advantage here? What I see is that the springs cause a reduction in distance the weights will slide, reducing torque, never mind the energy lost to heat compressing and extending the springs.
What am I missing?
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- Devotee
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- Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 12:22 pm
- Location: Speyer, Germany
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re: T-Pendulum and Single Bar
Hi Agor95,
I see you try to unbalance the forces using the gravity.
The masses will move on wobble track. As faster you will turn it, as rounder the masses will fly. Centrifugal forces will eleminate the wobbeling.
In my opinion you will not succeed with this constructipon, no way. Only my opinion.
To succeed you need an additional force which will oscillate in the same or in the opposite direction so that forces can be added/subtracted.
A good way to start will be a top heavy Pendulum. Try to catch the falling weight at horizontal Level and eliminate the energy so that it can swing back again.
I see you try to unbalance the forces using the gravity.
The masses will move on wobble track. As faster you will turn it, as rounder the masses will fly. Centrifugal forces will eleminate the wobbeling.
In my opinion you will not succeed with this constructipon, no way. Only my opinion.
To succeed you need an additional force which will oscillate in the same or in the opposite direction so that forces can be added/subtracted.
A good way to start will be a top heavy Pendulum. Try to catch the falling weight at horizontal Level and eliminate the energy so that it can swing back again.
Best regards
Georg
Georg
re: T-Pendulum and Single Bar
Cloud camper :-)
So in a way we are mosquito's around Bessler.
The springs are a component of the visualizer.
An easy simple component.
The actual spring forces are supplied by elastic rope.
No compression involved.
Georg Künstler
The T-Pendulum to help the system get to an good operational speed
is an option.
There is no trying here I set up the sim and watch what happens.
The images are of an ME inspired simplified version smaller size and masses.
In the end after finding a promising combination of elastic spring forces,
rod length and masses; I will be in a position to build something.
Here is the last 30 minutes self starter.
https://steampunks.ddns.net/bessler/wheel/wheel6m.html
As explained the 25 RPM cross bar version has less fiction problems.
Remember I put in a fiction damper on the rods. so the system has some work.
I will see about putting the sim illustration on the helper site.
Thanks members for your observations.
I would like to think this study is a members all project.pesky mosquito towards your project
So in a way we are mosquito's around Bessler.
The springs are a component of the visualizer.
An easy simple component.
The actual spring forces are supplied by elastic rope.
No compression involved.
Georg Künstler
The T-Pendulum to help the system get to an good operational speed
is an option.
There is no trying here I set up the sim and watch what happens.
The images are of an ME inspired simplified version smaller size and masses.
In the end after finding a promising combination of elastic spring forces,
rod length and masses; I will be in a position to build something.
Here is the last 30 minutes self starter.
https://steampunks.ddns.net/bessler/wheel/wheel6m.html
As explained the 25 RPM cross bar version has less fiction problems.
Remember I put in a fiction damper on the rods. so the system has some work.
I will see about putting the sim illustration on the helper site.
Thanks members for your observations.
[MP] Mobiles that perpetuate - external energy allowed
re: T-Pendulum and Single Bar
https://steampunks.ddns.net/bessler/wheel/wheel2m.htmlThe images are of an ME inspired simplified version smaller size and masses.
The tree observations that I would like you to think about.
1. The micro variations are gone.
2. The is a macro variation with more torque on the downward side.
3. The masses have speed when they are moving back up.
RPM is around 55. Center of the masses are 3 Feet 2 inches from the hub center. 1.0 metre aprox
All the best.
[MP] Mobiles that perpetuate - external energy allowed
re: T-Pendulum and Single Bar
A quick'n-dirty observation:
Marchello E.
-- May the force lift you up. In case it doesn't, try something else.---
-- May the force lift you up. In case it doesn't, try something else.---