This is specially for Sleepy who has always a encouraging word.
1 is a disc/wheel.
2 is axle.
3 is a circular tube/canal fix around periphery of disc/wheel half filled with water/liquid.
4 is water level.
If and when disc/wheel rotates, water level inside tube/canal will fall on the ascending side and rise on the descending side, adding inertia, torque and momentum to wheel for continued rotation.
Please note: Rising of water level, is on the descending side.
@ ALL!
Don't be shy.
Tell me what you think of this simplest of all wheel concepts.
Thank you.
Raj
I cannot think of any wheel concept simpler than this...
Moderator: scott
re: I cannot think of any wheel concept simpler than this...
Bessler's drawing using water/liquid :
Raj
Raj
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Georg Künstler
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re: I cannot think of any wheel concept simpler than this...
Hi Raj,
this construction will not work in my opinion.
Again you are not using a 2 stage oscillation so the forces left and right cancel out.
Here the side component is missing. if you shake the complete drum sidewards, then you will get it like a sea wave and it will turn, but you have to repeat this side shift again and again.
Maybe you have a chance to look into a washing machine when in action.
this construction will not work in my opinion.
Again you are not using a 2 stage oscillation so the forces left and right cancel out.
Here the side component is missing. if you shake the complete drum sidewards, then you will get it like a sea wave and it will turn, but you have to repeat this side shift again and again.
Maybe you have a chance to look into a washing machine when in action.
Best regards
Georg
Georg
re: I cannot think of any wheel concept simpler than this...
Thank you Georg.
Nice to hear from you.
Let us visualize the motions in this concept, tiny steps by tiny steps.
1. We start with the wheel, at rest in a balanced state.
2. We give the wheel a reasonable push or pull.
3. The wheel will rotate.
4. The water in the tube/canal will move slowly towards the descending side of the tube/canal/wheel, changing the COM of the wheel, providing some slight torque and momentum, while seeking to level out, from the very first instant of the motion.
5. The water WILL NOT flow backwards, even when the wheel stops. It will simply level out as and when the flow motion stops. There is nothing to force the wheel to turn in the opposite direction.
6. Once the wheel begins to rotate, water will be NOT find its initial start balance state, and the position/flowing motion of the water will NOT provide counter torque to stop the wheel from rotating, and NOTHING else would, EXCEPT friction on the axle.
7. Inertia, moment of Inertia, momentum, angular momentum, COM of wheel with moving weights/water, through every single degree of rotation, net torque minus frictions, minimal air drag ALL will have to be taken into account to fully analyze this water wheel concept.
We should not shun this concept because it is too simple.
Raj
Nice to hear from you.
Let us visualize the motions in this concept, tiny steps by tiny steps.
1. We start with the wheel, at rest in a balanced state.
2. We give the wheel a reasonable push or pull.
3. The wheel will rotate.
4. The water in the tube/canal will move slowly towards the descending side of the tube/canal/wheel, changing the COM of the wheel, providing some slight torque and momentum, while seeking to level out, from the very first instant of the motion.
5. The water WILL NOT flow backwards, even when the wheel stops. It will simply level out as and when the flow motion stops. There is nothing to force the wheel to turn in the opposite direction.
6. Once the wheel begins to rotate, water will be NOT find its initial start balance state, and the position/flowing motion of the water will NOT provide counter torque to stop the wheel from rotating, and NOTHING else would, EXCEPT friction on the axle.
7. Inertia, moment of Inertia, momentum, angular momentum, COM of wheel with moving weights/water, through every single degree of rotation, net torque minus frictions, minimal air drag ALL will have to be taken into account to fully analyze this water wheel concept.
We should not shun this concept because it is too simple.
Raj
Last edited by raj on Fri May 04, 2018 12:09 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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daanopperman
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re: I cannot think of any wheel concept simpler than this...
Hi raj ,
Is this your own concept ?
Is this your own concept ?
re: I cannot think of any wheel concept simpler than this...
Hello Raj!
I was wondering when you might make another design using fluid.I still think your design of several years ago,when you used a weighted float inside a half filled container of water,was one of the most ingenious designs I've seen.(I know the motion had something to do with the shape of the container,and I think you might use that to your advantage in a re-design of that concept.)
For this current design I feel like it will end up being the wheel that moves the water,instead of the water moving the wheel.But there may be a way to alter the shape of the canal to achieve a venturi effect that might give the water a reason to rise faster to the other side.It would end up being a one-directional set up.
I was wondering when you might make another design using fluid.I still think your design of several years ago,when you used a weighted float inside a half filled container of water,was one of the most ingenious designs I've seen.(I know the motion had something to do with the shape of the container,and I think you might use that to your advantage in a re-design of that concept.)
For this current design I feel like it will end up being the wheel that moves the water,instead of the water moving the wheel.But there may be a way to alter the shape of the canal to achieve a venturi effect that might give the water a reason to rise faster to the other side.It would end up being a one-directional set up.
Trying to turn the spinning in my brain into something useful before moving on to the next life.
re: I cannot think of any wheel concept simpler than this...
@ Daano.
Yes, this is my very own latest wheel concept.
I have surprised myself with this one. I looks very attractive to me.
@ Sleepy.
Thank you for you comments, as usual.
I feel there is something special in this water wheel concept.
I agree with you that the wheel has to turn first, to make the water move towards the descending side of the wheel. Of course, the wheel will only turn when an initial, one-off pull/push force is given to the wheel.
For once, just consider a sphere rolling in the tube/canal, instead of water.
The initial ACTION ( push/pull force) will turn the wheel, and the sphere may roll a bit further up on the descending side of the wheel, moving the COM of the wheel towards the descending side, providing a fleeting torque.
But then, there will be an instant REACTION.
The sphere will roll downwards towards the ascending side only to settle back to its initial starting position at 6 o'clock.
The wheel and everything stop.
Now, let us reconsider the water in the tube/canal scenario:
Just like in the case of the rolling sphere, the wheel will be given an initial one-off force to start turning.
There's no denying that the water in the tube/canal will then move towards the descending side of the wheel, just as the sphere, while keeping its level, as water is suppose to do at any place, anywhere.
Here the ACTION was the initial push/pull force.
WHERE is the REACTION? counterforce (apart from friction)
The water will move towards the descending, providing momentum and torque, just like the sphere, BUT WATER will not MOVE backwards towards the ascending side, and will not provide any NEGATIVE torque.
If we agree for one moment, that water will move and provide momentum and positive torque, however small, then this additional momentum and torque will provide force to replace the initial push/pull force given to start the wheel turning in the first place.
The wheel then could continue turning.
Raj
Yes, this is my very own latest wheel concept.
I have surprised myself with this one. I looks very attractive to me.
@ Sleepy.
Thank you for you comments, as usual.
I feel there is something special in this water wheel concept.
I agree with you that the wheel has to turn first, to make the water move towards the descending side of the wheel. Of course, the wheel will only turn when an initial, one-off pull/push force is given to the wheel.
For once, just consider a sphere rolling in the tube/canal, instead of water.
The initial ACTION ( push/pull force) will turn the wheel, and the sphere may roll a bit further up on the descending side of the wheel, moving the COM of the wheel towards the descending side, providing a fleeting torque.
But then, there will be an instant REACTION.
The sphere will roll downwards towards the ascending side only to settle back to its initial starting position at 6 o'clock.
The wheel and everything stop.
Now, let us reconsider the water in the tube/canal scenario:
Just like in the case of the rolling sphere, the wheel will be given an initial one-off force to start turning.
There's no denying that the water in the tube/canal will then move towards the descending side of the wheel, just as the sphere, while keeping its level, as water is suppose to do at any place, anywhere.
Here the ACTION was the initial push/pull force.
WHERE is the REACTION? counterforce (apart from friction)
The water will move towards the descending, providing momentum and torque, just like the sphere, BUT WATER will not MOVE backwards towards the ascending side, and will not provide any NEGATIVE torque.
If we agree for one moment, that water will move and provide momentum and positive torque, however small, then this additional momentum and torque will provide force to replace the initial push/pull force given to start the wheel turning in the first place.
The wheel then could continue turning.
Raj
Last edited by raj on Fri May 04, 2018 4:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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re: I cannot think of any wheel concept simpler than this...
Hello Jonnynet.
It's been sometime to hear from you.
I am pleased to say that there won't any such problem.
I have carried out a small physical test.
It's a 8 cm diameter plastic container, with an improvised disc glued tightly inside to the bottom floor of the container and to the inside of the lid
The water liquid is reddish in colour. Unfortunately I did not manage to fill the right amount of water.
The tube/canal in this test is the circular space between the rim of the container and the rim of the improvised disc.
Raj
It's been sometime to hear from you.
I am pleased to say that there won't any such problem.
I have carried out a small physical test.
It's a 8 cm diameter plastic container, with an improvised disc glued tightly inside to the bottom floor of the container and to the inside of the lid
The water liquid is reddish in colour. Unfortunately I did not manage to fill the right amount of water.
The tube/canal in this test is the circular space between the rim of the container and the rim of the improvised disc.
Raj
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re: I cannot think of any wheel concept simpler than this...
Following my explanation and comparison of my water moving with a sphere rolling inside a wheel, I would like to point out one fundamental difference.
And that is LATENCY.
The sphere does not roll, nor does a pendulum swing, before being first lifted, however slight by the turning wheel, and immediately seek the lowest level by turning or swinging back.
Whilst water has the inherent ability to flow by itself even if not lifted and level does not change, beating latency.
Also I am not at all knowledgeable about “ Pressure�
I would think that liquid pressure inside a container must be applying some force at the point of contact in the container.
That force of pressure inside a wheel must be equivalent to turning force I.e torque in a wheel.
Water moving away from the ascending side of a turning wheel, would mean pressure being moved away, reduced at that contact point on the ascending side. In other words, torque at the contact point on the ascending side is being reduced, and torque WILL increase, at the new contact point on the descending side of the wheel, as water move in, as the wheel turns, and new pressure is added on the descending side.
I sincerely believe these thoughts have to be looked into.
Raj
And that is LATENCY.
The sphere does not roll, nor does a pendulum swing, before being first lifted, however slight by the turning wheel, and immediately seek the lowest level by turning or swinging back.
Whilst water has the inherent ability to flow by itself even if not lifted and level does not change, beating latency.
Also I am not at all knowledgeable about “ Pressure�
I would think that liquid pressure inside a container must be applying some force at the point of contact in the container.
That force of pressure inside a wheel must be equivalent to turning force I.e torque in a wheel.
Water moving away from the ascending side of a turning wheel, would mean pressure being moved away, reduced at that contact point on the ascending side. In other words, torque at the contact point on the ascending side is being reduced, and torque WILL increase, at the new contact point on the descending side of the wheel, as water move in, as the wheel turns, and new pressure is added on the descending side.
I sincerely believe these thoughts have to be looked into.
Raj
Keep learning till the end.
re: I cannot think of any wheel concept simpler than this...
A grandfather's clock mechanism IN REVERSE.
Loaded barrel mainspring as hub on axle, unwinds on one end, to supply elastic potential energy, torque to wheel to rotate, and wheel/pendulum geared to ratchet wheel on barrel, to counter rotate to wind back on the other end, to replenish loss elastic potential energy.
Raj
Loaded barrel mainspring as hub on axle, unwinds on one end, to supply elastic potential energy, torque to wheel to rotate, and wheel/pendulum geared to ratchet wheel on barrel, to counter rotate to wind back on the other end, to replenish loss elastic potential energy.
Raj
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re: I cannot think of any wheel concept simpler than this...
The circles in black represent a wheel with hub and diametrically fix arms on a horizontal axle.
The circle in blue represents a smaller wheel on the same axle.
The circles in green represent wheels/pendulums pivoting on fix arms, geared with wheel in blue.
The small lines in red represent elastic potential energy loaded springs connecting wheel hub in black and smaller wheel in blue.
The large wheel in black, including everything inside on the left shows the whole wheel system in balance and rest position.
The large wheel in black, on the right, show the whole wheel system, having turned clockwise some 45 degrees, after being given an initial push or pull.
Look at the springs in red:
The spring on the right is longer.
Can you see and understand why the spring in the second drawing is longer?
If you can, what would be the overall effect of this stretching spring?
Raj
The circle in blue represents a smaller wheel on the same axle.
The circles in green represent wheels/pendulums pivoting on fix arms, geared with wheel in blue.
The small lines in red represent elastic potential energy loaded springs connecting wheel hub in black and smaller wheel in blue.
The large wheel in black, including everything inside on the left shows the whole wheel system in balance and rest position.
The large wheel in black, on the right, show the whole wheel system, having turned clockwise some 45 degrees, after being given an initial push or pull.
Look at the springs in red:
The spring on the right is longer.
Can you see and understand why the spring in the second drawing is longer?
If you can, what would be the overall effect of this stretching spring?
Raj
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re: I cannot think of any wheel concept simpler than this...
I post my works on this forum, as a genuine PMM seeker, for nothing more and nothing less than showing you all, how and what I am doing.
Raj
Raj
Keep learning till the end.
re: I cannot think of any wheel concept simpler than this...
The tortoise and Achilles paradox:
Which wheel, small wheel in blue or large wheel in black will run faster (rpm)? when an initial external force and gravitational force are applied?
What would be the effect of the outcome of this race on the spring in red?
Don't reply.
Just find out for yourself.
Raj
Which wheel, small wheel in blue or large wheel in black will run faster (rpm)? when an initial external force and gravitational force are applied?
What would be the effect of the outcome of this race on the spring in red?
Don't reply.
Just find out for yourself.
Raj
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re: I cannot think of any wheel concept simpler than this...
It's unfair, I think, for me to ask questions for others to answer, and not giving my own answers.
In the drawings shown, the wheel system will only begin to rotate after a one off initial push pull external force is applied.
The large wheel in black will then turn and the circular pendulum wheels pivoting on the arms in black will swing and rotate in counter direction to the wheel's, round the axle, while geared with and making small circle in blue, rotate in the same direction as the large wheel in black.
Answer 1:
Because the small wheel in blue rotate separately to large wheel in black on the same axle, and is smaller than pendulum wheels in green, it will rotate faster than pendulum wheels because only of their gearing and differing diameters.
And the pendulum wheels will rotate at the same speed (rpm) to the large wheel as the move round the axle.
Therefore by deduction, small wheel in blue will rotate FASTER (rpm) than the large wheel in black.
Answer 2:
Following from answer 1, the small wheel in blue will also rotate faster than and AHEAD of inner rim in black of large wheel.
The small red line, representing the spring in the first drawing, connecting the wheel in blue and the inner rim of large wheel in black is loaded with elastic potential energy, that is it is extended, and longer than its natural length.
And when the larger wheel will turn, the wheel in blue will rotate faster than the inner rim, thereby extending spring in red even further, adding MORE elastic potential energy.
The extra extended spring will easily pull the rim of the larger wheel towards the spring connection point on the blue wheel, because both are turning in the same direction.
Answer 2: The effect of the outcome of the spring in red spring extending is:
Wheel in blue will turn large wheel in black, using elastic potential energy of spring in red, and pendulum wheels in green, moving round axle of rotating wheel, will force wheel in blue to rotate faster and ahead of larger wheel in black, replenishing and adding further elastic potential energy to spring in red.
How many marks do I get for my answers?
<0???
Raj
In the drawings shown, the wheel system will only begin to rotate after a one off initial push pull external force is applied.
The large wheel in black will then turn and the circular pendulum wheels pivoting on the arms in black will swing and rotate in counter direction to the wheel's, round the axle, while geared with and making small circle in blue, rotate in the same direction as the large wheel in black.
Answer 1:
Because the small wheel in blue rotate separately to large wheel in black on the same axle, and is smaller than pendulum wheels in green, it will rotate faster than pendulum wheels because only of their gearing and differing diameters.
And the pendulum wheels will rotate at the same speed (rpm) to the large wheel as the move round the axle.
Therefore by deduction, small wheel in blue will rotate FASTER (rpm) than the large wheel in black.
Answer 2:
Following from answer 1, the small wheel in blue will also rotate faster than and AHEAD of inner rim in black of large wheel.
The small red line, representing the spring in the first drawing, connecting the wheel in blue and the inner rim of large wheel in black is loaded with elastic potential energy, that is it is extended, and longer than its natural length.
And when the larger wheel will turn, the wheel in blue will rotate faster than the inner rim, thereby extending spring in red even further, adding MORE elastic potential energy.
The extra extended spring will easily pull the rim of the larger wheel towards the spring connection point on the blue wheel, because both are turning in the same direction.
Answer 2: The effect of the outcome of the spring in red spring extending is:
Wheel in blue will turn large wheel in black, using elastic potential energy of spring in red, and pendulum wheels in green, moving round axle of rotating wheel, will force wheel in blue to rotate faster and ahead of larger wheel in black, replenishing and adding further elastic potential energy to spring in red.
How many marks do I get for my answers?
<0???
Raj
Keep learning till the end.