The war of the ego about an unrealizable illusion

[unstable]

Let's go well, if you get confused even in the quotes... and write things that have not even been said ... you are a guarantee of professionalism. ;-)

I repeat: it is not through a mechanical trick that you can get PM. Bessler supplied energy from the external (or he used internally, propulsion materials that would be exhausted over time) and was therefore not a perpetual motion machine.
This also explains his fear of the fact that the buyer would have wanted the money back, once he saw the inside of the wheel. What sense would it have had to want money back just because the mechanism was simple ? Use logic. The stories of Bessler are full of contradictions and it is clear that he was trying to misdirecting. And he also succeeded very well ;-)

[ovyyus]

Claudio, that (fraud) may be the case today, but was it the case in the early 1700's? In 1714 Leibniz seemed quite willing to accept a 'physical principle' energy source as legitimate.

[unstable]

Bill, if there was an unknown physical principle or if it were possible to get PM through mechanical tricks, it seems to me CERTAIN that it would already be found for quite some time. It is simple logic. The story of Bessler was a really well-designed fraud. I can not have the proof but I am convinced of this ... as you (not you Ovyyus) here are convinced that there is a mechanical solution.

Do not be misled by the thought that, as a mind like Leibniz did not realize it was a fraud, then it must necessarily be real. Leibniz did not have the time and (probably) knowledge to understand the type of fraud in place ... I find it quite obvious.

Unfortunately, here you are used to taking as "casted gold", as a dogma, any information that supports hope. Without a critical mind we go not far.

[ovyyus]

Claudio, you seem convinced that Bessler was a fraud and that everyone, then and now, has been duped. You take the easy position. Not so easy is explaining the method Bessler used?

[unstable]

Bill, I know you think the same thing (fraud) ... the question that comes to me spontaneously is: what sense does it have to find the kind of fraud that Bessler put in place? It was not a perpetual motion ... end of story. Probably nowadays it would not even be possible to find the same materials (chemical or physical) that Bessler used. Maybe they were extremely toxic materials and therefore banned for a long time.

However it seems to me much more probable that its wheel was driven by a powerful spring (with a very long charge) that was loaded (maybe) from the outside in an occult manner. Among other things, it does not take much energy to overcome frictions and spin a wheel for 54/2 days. Halfway through the test, with the excuse of the controls, Bessler reloaded the spring or repositioned the weight to the maximum height ;-) The mechanism was probably a variation of that used in tests with the wheel under load... with different ratio of mechanical energy supplied and therefore of duration of the charge (of the spring or the weight). For an expert clock-maker I think it was something feasible.

You (plural) have fixed yourself on insignificant details and seem to leave out the most probable facts.

[Oystein]

it seems to me CERTAIN that it would already be found for quite some time. It is simple logic. The story of Bessler was a really well-designed fraud. I can not have the proof but I am convinced of this ...

Do not be misled by the thought that, as a mind like Leibniz did not realize it was a fraud, then it must necessarily be real. Leibniz did not have the time and (probably) knowledge to understand the type of fraud in place ... I find it quite obvious.

Unfortunately, here you are used to taking as "casted gold", as a dogma, any information that supports hope. Without a critical mind we go not far.

Through all times we have thought that we are at the end of development. We have solved all the great problems by now...finally...was the thought a 100 years ago. 50 years ago. 300 years ago. and 1000 years ago. But still we always look back and can see how little we knew. You repeat the same. The only book still not obsolete is Evclid's Elements.

So about you placing yourself above Leibniz by saying: . Leibniz did not have the time and (probably) knowledge to understand the type of fraud in place ... I find it quite obvious.

Nothing obvious about it really, other than you being silly.

Let's look a "Top 10 Geniuses list" http://listverse.com/2007/10/06/top-10-geniuses/

Quote: Ranked number 4 in history: Gottfried Wilhelm von Leibniz IQ: 205

He occupies an equally large place in both the history of philosophy and the history of mathematics. He discovered calculus independently of Newton, and his notation is the one in general use since. He also discovered the binary system, foundation of virtually all modern computer architectures. In philosophy, he is most remembered for optimism,

Then you say: Without a critical mind we go not far. This isn't really true!

FACTS:
- With a very critical mind you go nowhere.
- With a very open mind, you go anywhere and everywhere.

With first a very open mind to receive all available information without letting prejudices colour the information, and then later you may apply just the correct amount of critical mind, then you can get the longest.

Example: Without John being open minded, we would never know the truth about Besslers case! Now later we may be critical, but I don't think being so critical that you put yourself above Leibniz, that became his friend and "designed"/suggested the tests to disprove a wound spring as you suggest, and all the others signing the reports, as a wise critical mind. I think it's a very critical mind, that will get you just where you are. Never further! Good luck staying there though. In your happy-spot maybe :)

Best
ØR

[ovyyus]

Bill, I know you think the same thing (fraud) ...

No, I don't think Bessler was a fraud by the standards of his time.

[ovyyus]

Ranked number 4 in history: Gottfried Wilhelm von Leibniz IQ: 205

How was Leibniz IQ measured?

[John Collins]

Claudio I understand that you believe Bessler was a fraud, but when you first came on this forum you seemed equally certain that he was genuine, otherwise why did you post all the ideas you had about his wheel? What changed your mind?

JC

[unstable]

@Oystein, I'm sorry if it sounds offensive to you, but from what you write I think you no longer have the plasticity of mind necessary to understand certain things.
If I were in your place I would also consider the size of Leibniz shoes .. and why not, the length of the "tool". Your speeches about the IQ and the imaginary competition to those who dominate the other in terms of intelligence make me understand well with who I'm interacting with. Bye, good luck (I hate religions and hate people who reason by dogmas).


@John, I understood clearly and lucidly that it's all a joke, a farce. In this world there is no space for naive and inexperienced. Unfortunately, the world is in the hands of the filibusters. You of Anglo-Saxon derivation, by culture, give too much importance to what a distinguished man wrote. The flaws and scams were well known even at that time, you are naive, credulous.

You (plural) are repeating the same things, expecting different result ... this borders on madness.
After all, you know that you can look for the solution and try for another 1000 years but you will not find anything. In this case it is common sense that must prevail.
You have fun in this way, ok, go ahead ... I'll be watching, giggling (to smile) from time to time that a new illusion will bloom.

Try to refute my dogma ... which is longer than yours. ;-))))) (I laugh)

[John Collins]

And will you graciously admit you were wrong when I or someone else on this forum reveals a working Bessler type wheel?

JC

[unstable]

This illusion is the engine that drives you to continue. Quiet John, I'm sure that what you said will never happen. Only a sibling fraud could allow it.
You will all of you, gullible, graciously admit that you were wrong. :-)))

I joke... I am not an EGO man. The thought of the individual is not important, the truth is important... but here the truth is deeply hidden ... intentionally or not.

[Senax]

Claudio I understand that you believe Bessler was a fraud, but when you first came on this forum you seemed equally certain that he was genuine, otherwise why did you post all the ideas you had about his wheel? What changed your mind?

JC

I have the advantage of having an Italian son-in-law (Franco Federici) so I understand them. ;-)

[Oystein]

Claudio I understand that you believe Bessler was a fraud, but when you first came on this forum you seemed equally certain that he was genuine, otherwise why did you post all the ideas you had about his wheel? What changed your mind?

JC

I had similar thoughts after about 5-7 years of research. I found that it was impossible by my own experiments and by studying physics. I gave up for a period.

Later after starting to read the testimonials and studying MT all over, I changed my mind back again.. There was something more to the story..but what?

Then I found that Bessler manipulated certain information, so to create a system of coincing information. This made me curious about what he tried to tell.. If I totally gave up on Bessler... I wouldn't find out what he tried to communicate. What ever it is, it is about discovering truth, and that is all I am about. I don't like religion either, but to dismiss other peoples part in religion, would rule out me discovering every aspect of what they want to tell..

Best
ØR

[unstable]

Bessler was an impostor, he was also put in jail. How do you believe that his wheel was really PM ? Do you have slices of salami in front of your eyes ?
Bessler has only had the merit of being very clever at hiding the kind of fraud in place.

Bill (Ovyyus), you're so careful and precise in trying to unmask users who only offer fake (fraud) and rigged wheels ... and do not understand the queen of frauds from which this whole story originated ? Strange, really strange and bad.

Oystein, at least regarding religions we see it in the same way. I do not believe the same thing about the dogmas. The contingent physical reality can not be considered a dogma because it is possible to prove everything about it.

Senax, if that person knew that they had been named by name and surname on this forum, I guess it would be immensely happy. Perhaps the concept of privacy escapes you, or is simply a lie. What do I have to read. Facepalm :-)


Sometimes I go so far as to suspect that this whole story is a pure invention. Maybe put in place to sell books and even make a site on the internet. But I leave the benefit of the doubt and I do not want to affirm this, it's just my impression. What is certain is that everything here appears to be meticulously designed. The story of the witnesses, the clues, the secret codes ... in short, there is something for everyone.
So I can say that: either you have all been cheated or someone in recent times is cheating all the others. But in any case, the cheating is a constant.