The puzzle has been solved

[ovaron]

If Bessler used a pendulum inside the wheel, the pendulum would have to lengthen when the wheel was running under load at lower speed. Theoretically possible, but does that fit in with Karl's statement that it was a SIMPLE mechanism?

I don't say that a pendulum was not used, but can't find any true statement from Bessler himself about it.

"Ein Krebs vorwärts und rücklings kriecht" (APO 1, p.90)
An indication of a pendulum????

Still wonder what Bessler wants to say with that.

[unstable]

Do you know what reminds me the phrase "Ein Krebs vorwärts und rücklings kriecht" combined with the "peacock's tail" description ?
I tell you: a retractable mechanism, perhaps following a curved line, like the outer edge of the wheel, something similar to the attached image ... weights could be distributed at every junction (X intersections). Intuitively, Bessler's descriptions lead me to think about that... and this movement, with a little imagination, could, in a sense, be described as a pendulum.
Along the circumference there may be some of these mechanisms and using pulleys could be made to balance each other in a sort of "roberval" effect.

Edit:
I have a strong suspicion that with three of these mechanisms positioned equidistantly along the circumference, it is possible to obtain a balancing effect in their movement, but with a slight unbalance of the global COM.
Visually imagining what I said, we would be very close to the three-segment wheel drawing, with the phrase "and do you still not understand?".
They are all theories, of course ... it could be anything else.

[Silvertiger]

This thread should be renamed to: "The puzzle has not been solved...I'm working on it. Okay?"

[unstable]

You know that you can not change the title and text N hours after creating a new thread.
:-P

Like everyone here, including yourself, we are "working" on it.

[Silvertiger]

I said that it should...didn't say that it could. :P

[MrTim]

Pretty sure Scott could change it for you... ;-)

[unstable]

Regarding the thread title, for me it is the same. If you all want it to be changed, I'll ask Scott to modify it :-)

I write my today's idea regarding the Bessler wheel:
it would seem that many clues lead me to think of a structure in which there are many bars that start from the same central pivot and end with a weight. These bars are connected to each other (previous and following) by springs... all along 360°. For every single bar there is a simple mechanism that allows the movement of the bar to be delayed (a "braking" relative to the position in time of the other bars, not relative to a fixed point) by a few degrees. This mechanism operates at 6 o'clock. Would not this create an avalanche effect in a side of the global system ? Because of the redistribution over time, there would be more weights present on one side.

I believe his wheel was something so simple. Bessler, managed to find a simple mechanical system to slightly slow down, one after another, all the weights that pass in a certain range of degrees of rotation... but this happens during movement and relative to the position of the other moving objects.

Edit:
The only design that comes slightly closer to what I wrote is the MT17 But the bars would be straight and there would never be such a distance between the bars. The variation in the distance should be at most a few degrees.

Thinking better ... more than a delay should be a shift, a loss of position of a few degrees that is exchanged with the diametrically opposite bar. It could be a gravitationalally compensated rotation or shift (roberval effect).

In short, the idea is to create a dynamic differential that is not caused by gravity but by the inertia of the masses. The effect would have repercussions on the global COM, producing, thanks to the force of gravity, a certain torque.

Of the series ... very few ideas but very confusing... LOL

[unstable]

I try to clarify the concept:
the use of springs as a method of connection between the previous and subsequent bars is a simple way to achieve dynamic behavior during movement (rotation). The weights connected to the end of each bar must be able to slightly move in the two directions of rotation (then, not radially but tangentially). If the movement of diametrically opposite weights(? or by an other position logic, I don't know for now) is done by exploiting the roberval principle, the required energy would be minimal.
The purpose of this is to create an avalanche effect that allows the wheel, when in motion, to have at least one more weight on one side.
The Roberval principle could be useful to vary the position of two objects with the result of a dynamic variation of the system (I think).

We have inertia and gravity, springs allow us to emphasize dynamic behavior. We must solve this enigma.

About MT17, I wonder why B. has designed a bar with a weight outside the wheel... could it be an attention warning sign ?

[Art]

"About MT17, I wonder why B. has designed a bar with a weight outside the wheel..."

Yes , . you mean the part that looks like a "bugle . ?

That fascinated me too !


Whats the purpose of that ? I wonder !

[Art]

If Bessler used a pendulum inside the wheel, the pendulum would have to lengthen when the wheel was running under load at lower speed. Theoretically possible, but does that fit in with Karl's statement that it was a SIMPLE mechanism?

I don't say that a pendulum was not used, but can't find any true statement from Bessler himself about it.

"Ein Krebs vorwärts und rücklings kriecht" (APO 1, p.90)
An indication of a pendulum????

Still wonder what Bessler wants to say with that.

Hi Ovaron , As a german speaker what's your 'best bash' at translating that into english ?

[sleepy]

Hey Art,
I think the "bugle" you refer to is simply a front view of the arms of the wheel.From the side you can't see how the arms are shaped,so Bessler included a front view of the arm.

[ovaron]

"Ein Krebs vorwärts und rücklings kriecht" (APO 1, p.90)

My translation would be:
"A crayfish crawls forward and backward"

IMO this could be an indication of a pendulum like movement.

(Maybe he means something like "two steps forward and one backward"?)

[unstable]

Yes, it is a front view of one pivot, one rod with one weight at the end...
but I wonder why he designed an obvious detail. Perhaps to highlight the shape of the arm that is inverted "V"? or perhaps to emphasize the kind of approach that underlies what enabled him to achieve continuous motion ?

If, as Karl stated, we remain on a simple realization, this could be the design we are so looking for. I do not know if anyone of this forum has already experimented with this type of approach ... perhaps it is appropriate to deepen this system and try to understand if it is possible, by modifying it, to get the result so much coveted.

From a static point of view, it would not work, the weights in the two parts of the wheel would balance. I wonder if, changing the logic of connection between the various arms, and, as I wrote before, allowing some movement of the weights with respect to their arms, it is possible to obtain, when in rotation, a fruitful imbalance. ;-)

[Art]

"Ein Krebs vorwärts und rücklings kriecht" (APO 1, p.90)

My translation would be:
"A crayfish crawls forward and backward"

IMO this could be an indication of a pendulum like movement.

(Maybe he means something like "two steps forward and one backward"?)

The problem with crustaceans and crayfish IMO is all those legs and feelers and pincers (all multiple jointed types of things) . Its hard to figure out why they need so many of them .

I hope he wasn't thinking that these things resembled his prime mover or something and you need a bunch of them ! :)

[Art]

Hey Art,
I think the "bugle" you refer to is simply a front view of the arms of the wheel.From the side you can't see how the arms are shaped,so Bessler included a front view of the arm.

Yes that makes sense .

Unstable --"Yes, it is a front view of one pivot, one rod with one weight at the end... "

What seemed a bit confusing to me was the curved section at the "pivot" that made it look a bit like the end of a wind instrument in profile.

That resolves though if you imagine that curved section as a small transverse axle and the rest as a tapered metal leaf spring with the weight at the top .

Bessler and his quote ! :) "A sharp mind will quickly perceive..." ! He had no idea what my sharp mind could quickly perceive !