Hints everywhere

[cloud camper]

Peace and love and Kumbaya to all star creatures Alemania but this is ancient stuff.

What you're describing is simply the Gravesande CF experiment performed in 1717!



Here is a thread from 12 years ago discussing the same idea!

http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... experiment

The small weight lifts the heavier weight with CF. Yea!

But the phenomena is completely conservative.

It seems like magic but everyone wants to forget that it took energy to spin up the experiment and create the conditions for CF to occur in the first place!

It turns out the energy input into the system is exactly equal to the RKE obtained by the small weight plus the GPE gained by the heavy weight.

This can be confirmed in any simulator.

So next time spend a little time with the search feature before playing the
"I've got a secret" game - it will save you a lot of embarrassment!

But thanks for trying!

[spinner361]

But there's more going on, because the larger weight all on it's own would slide toward the end.

[spinner361]

Is the end of a whip greater than 100% efficiency, or is it trying to maintain the moment of inertia, with loss of efficiency due to friction? It starts out with a huge arm swing and the loop gets smaller and smaller down to the end. But it was a totally awesome video, so thanks for that.

[silent]

.

[spinner361]

So you assume a female? Interesting...

[cloud camper]

He (or she??) needed a little time off to brush up on Physics for Dummies.

The game was not going to plan.

[Georg Künstler]

when I understand Alemania Bessler right, the he/she tries something like this.

A 4 pound weight cannot be lifted with a 1 pound on a usual lever, that is clear.

But as on a swing, the force on the anchor point is variating.
when we put this on a pulley, then we have conditions from 1 kg to weightless, depending on the position of the swinging weight.

Depending on the rope length we can get a high speed at the vertical position.

If a system is pre loaded as shown in the attachment then a spring is extended by the 4 kg weight.
A variating force on the pulley will cause to rise the 4 kg up.
It will oscillate too.
It is a coupled oscillation system.
I don't know how he/she will apply it in the wheel,
but basically I think the thinking is correct,
a small weight with high speed can lift a heavier weight with the right application.

[MrVibrating]

If the lift's caused by CF force acting on the smaller weight (due to its swing), then then the energy converted to GPE has come from the KE imparted to the swinging motion, plus the PE unloaded from the spring.

Simply combining CF force with gravity - springs or no - can't break energy symmetry.

Sorry to bleat on like a stuck record, but i believe the only parameter that can be manipulated to cause an energy gain is angular inertia as a function of effective radius..

..obviously, changing an angular inertia that is already in motion generally necessitates input or output work against CF force, and any resulting rise in KE (half angular inertia times RPM^2) is equal to that CF workload (mass times RPM^2 times radius times time) - or else, that workload plus any contribution from sprung PE or elsewhere.

So a genuine claimant with a viable exploit would only be concerned with discussing the means by which that symmetry was broken.

Simply alluding to the possibility that the symmetry 'may' be amenable to compromise is obviously just the inspiration for a research project, rather than the conclusions of one..

..you'd reasonably expect anyone having conducted such work would be thinking - and framing their findings - in empirical terms of those fields.

So colour me skeptical..

[Alemania Bessler]

Beloved souls.

It is nice to see how you try to understand, identify and analyze a process that is still completely unknown to you. However, before the process has been fully explained, misunderstandings can arise. I understand that and therefore I do not want to waste too much time and continue with the explanation.

First, thanks to 'cloud camper' for remembering the dear Professor 's Gravesande. A fascinating experiment, is not it? There is so much in this. I am touched.
Yes, even with the simple apparatus he introduces, one can build a - -.
And yet, this process alone can not be used for our purposes. Why?

- The large weight remains as it is, immobile and heavy, it just rotates with,
- the small weight needs too much hand made energy to start, it does not even use its own weight to make a contribution to the input ...
- ... on the contrary, NONE of the weights used provides an energy input, they only consum energy
- The setup does not vary in time to provide energy output, not even enough to sustain itself
- etc.

You see that if the entire process flow is unknown and not understood, there are too many open options that can confuse you.

AND we are getting closer and closer to it. Again, George has expressed an extremely interesting idea, perhaps unconsciously or consciously aware, definitely awesome:

> If a system is loaded in the attachment then a spring. ...

But more on that later.

The wheel continues to turn. We enter the second phase.
The centrifugal process, which is similar to that described above, should therefore be completed by about 3 o'clock. The small weight has now lifted through its extremely fast movement and special structural design, the great weight over itself. As a result, the wheel is in imbalance and it has enough energy to turn a little further.

The beginning 2nd phase could be described as the energy output phase. This is a little easier to understand because not much divorced in it.
The resulting overweight now has enough energy and is sufficient to 1. continue to turn the wheel (including all frictional losses), 2. to contribute the charging process for the 3rd phase and 3. additionally some energy at the axle of the wheel to deliver work (stone box lifting etc.).

Overall, therefore, we can identify three phases in which simple mechanical processes take place. But they all have to work together. Each one alone is of no use.

Maybe you already have ideas for the charging process? I would be glad if the genius in your happy souls sprays with life.

Thanks, and thanks for the hour in which I was allowed to be with you. Blessing on what is and what was and will come about.

[WaltzCee]

Sorry to bleat on

Careful with the bleating, you may get lambastarded.
I'm happy I survived a close encounter without getting
probed.

..obviously, changing an angular inertia that is already in
motion generally necessitates input or output work against CF force,
and any resulting rise in KE (half angular inertia times RPM^2)
is equal to that CF workload (mass times RPM^2 times
radius times time)

What if C.F. were eliminated/diminished to near nill?

edited to add quotes. earlier I was on my phone. I hate
that smart aleck phone.

[cloud camper]

Well I just hate to rain on anyone's parade, especially a fun secret parade, but
we have this pesky formula that calculates the CF force (actually pseudo force but that's another issue).

So for a wheel of radius 1m and a small weight mass of 1kg we need an overall wheel rpm of 19 rpm to generate a force necessary to lift another 4kg weight. Presumably you want to move the heavy weight into a OB position
with this force.

But we can't wait until 3 pm to start moving the weight as it takes time to make the translation so we need to start much earlier around 12 to get the weight in ideal position by 3 pm. So that means lifting the 4kg weight uphill, not just sideways.

With gravity in the picture it's all really a wash except for now we have to lift the heavy weight against gravity AND CF to get the heavy weight back into the reset position.

So we have to generate 19 rpm in the wheel first before we can generate enough CF to even move the heavy weight enough to create an overbalance.

Of course this still assumes that ANY overbalance can ever generate self rotation as we are now trying to cheat the Law of Levers which can never be violated.

So Ms Smartypants, how do you propose to generate 19 rpm before one can even attempt to apply your trick?

And then there's the issue of not matching either of Bessler's startup modes, the diectional wheel being self starting and the bidirectional only needing a small pushoff.

And here is Stewart's original idea from 2007 that exactly matches yours:

"I think many people are put off by gyroscope/flywheel/CF ideas because they can't see how Bessler's wheel could self-start.

I don't see this being a problem if they are one of two systems, the other consisting of overbalancing weights that are shifted by them.

For example the spinning weight units I'm showing here (or something similar) could possibly be used to shift overbalancing weights which cause the wheel to turn, which causes the rotating weight units to spin up again and in turn shift the OB weights".

http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... experiment

[Georg Künstler]

Hi cloud camper,
I had a look to the experiment of Gravesande.
Really interesting.
With the centrifugal force he will lift the weight against gravity.

I would change this experiment a little bit.
We use the gravity weight to accelerate the small weight.
There will be a point when cf is equal to the gravity force, you will agree I think.
if we are passing this point, then cf is greater and will repull the weight up again.
Maybe we can compare it with a centrifugal force clutch.
Up to this point I think nothing new. Friction will eat up all energy until the heavy weight is on the ground.

What we need is an additional action on this construction.
if the small weight is on the fly, it is in balance with the gravity force, so no advantage for us. But if it is rolling on the horizontal plate, then we can use on the plate the gravity force in addition. You have a variable lever arm.
the lever arm is extended when you lift the weight and shortened when the heavy weight is coming down.
I am thinking of an archimedes screw as the plate, the small weight will roll uphill and pull the heavy weight up.
Just an idea. I think Bessler was aware of the Archimedes screw.
The screw produces an pulsating output.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archimedes%27_screw

[Alemania Bessler]

Beloved souls.

Wonderful. I am amazed.
A very good observation and description of your thoughts 'Cloud Camper'. Everything you describe can be answered and provides a meaningful connection. All readers can be helped.

They made a suggestion regarding the size used. It has to be said that we first had to discuss the parameters and set the component size precisely. With a radius of 1m, the weight sizes of 1kg and 4kg will be critical, they are rather smaller at this radius to choose. The Darschwitz wheel and the Merseburger wheel were also slightly larger in radius. Then these weights fit. In connection with the Draschwitz wheel 1 pound and 4 pound weights were mentioned.
And just right, yes, the larger weight must be increased and also brought into an outer orbit. This is important.

You are still right. The implementation, ie the shifting of the weights, takes some time. And the idea that it happens only at the speed of 19 rpm is unacceptable. Please remember, I mentioned, that the fall movement will be about as fast as a whip at about 12 o'clock. Then the bill looks different.
Now the bill is structured like this:
1. Energy from accelerated fall movement (including generated centrifugal force) plus 2. the rotation (momentum) of the wheel.

This raises two questions: 1. Where does the energy for the accelerated fall movement come from? And 2. Why is the momentum of the wheel added here, even though the Draschwitz wheel, as you rightly said, started by itself and did not need any kick-off?

In the following, your other questions will be answered as well.

Let's start with the last momentum question first.
The Gera and Draschwitz wheels were, as you know, the directional wheels. They started by themselves when letting go and then accelerated independently. The fact that it worked is due to the fact that the wheel was first CHARGED. I explain this process later in more detail.
So, the wheel only had to be preloaded ONCE, so the energy needed to accelerate the fall movement was saved. Please be aware of this procedure and find the proof in Johann's writings.

"Beim einsetzen drückte er eine eiserne Feder hinunter"
"He pushed down an iron spring..." And this happened after he put the weights back. He would have had to turn the wheel either a quarter in the circle (he probably did not do it, because the wheel was fixed) or in this situation, he immediately pushed down the spring. And NOW we have identified the third component in his wheel, he actually used springs to buffer energy.

And now we can explain why the directional wheels started by themselves. These wheels have NOT needed any momentum from the wheel's turning motion. For the accelerated fall motion to work, the energy needed to be stored BEFORE in the form of mechanical energy (work done) using springs in kinetic energy.

Please note that this is only possible because the smaller weight is freed from the centrifugal force during the charging process. Otherwise we would have a balanced wheel.

In addition, the heavy weight also loses its "heaviness" with the help of springs, and is also biased. It actually becomes "LIGHTER".

But more on that later. I think it's a much of information to process it. But decide for yourself whether the described is sense or not.

Thanks for that moment. Peace and love in the cradle of your hearts.

[silent]

.

[Georg Künstler]

Hi Alemania Bessler,
you said :

that the wheel was first CHARGED

the sentence is true, but it must not be a spring.
You set with the spring the system under stress, it is a preloaded.
It can be managed also by pure gravity.
I described this under T-pendulum under stress.

The acceleration as you describe it can not accelerate the small weight without a counter torque.
Then you need something like a locking function so that the move is blocked(release of the spring) happens in both directions.

So releasing the spring cannot be the solution, here you need some more to do.
Maybe like Gravesande do it with his experiment.
The expanding spring accelerates the small weight and in addition the heavy weight is lifted.
This is a redirection of force by 90 degrees.

You can catch the small weight at 3 o'clock, recharging your spring, thats right.
You get the first acceleration from the spring + the acceleration from gravity but even then you need a big wheel because you need time for Gravity to do this additional acceleration.
A small wheel will not work.