Hints everywhere

[ME]

One fundamental truth is that *ALL* mechanical things man-made eventually fail, break down, need repair, etc.

ALL things, man-made or otherwise, eventually fall into decrepitude. Obviously, WE aren't the problem.

My attentive observations also indicate the problem isn't solved by redefining the terminology.

To add.
Things breaking doesn't necessarily imply it is not perpetual.
Let me reiterate an old idea (spoiler: it includes 'heat')

Things can break before "their time", or things can break way after "their time".
Perhaps, in the light of breaking things, we should define this "duration of things", so we could figure out at what point this "breaking" transforms from a nuisance to an actual critical operational component....
Sure we define that word "critical" as "essential", with the meaning "a way to extract useful potential energy" from the breaking process (whatever that may be).

Why would one want to wield a wooden wheel when, who-knows-how, this wooden widget would wear-out as a way of perpetualizing whirlings of that wheel?
Perhaps Bessler smashed his wheel for a technical reason (maybe extracted/evaporated moist made it brittle), while we all assume it was emotional rage.
For deserving the definition "perpetual" it better be that such wheel is capable of providing more energy in operation than the effort of building that construction in the first place plus the energy of burning that wood..... otherwise it would clearly break (-even) before its time, so we could just have burned that stack of wood as was delivered and be relaxed about it.
But I think the now newly introduced term "unstable perpetual motion" can be defined as being capable of providing at least the same amount of energy in its constructed form, as otherwise could have been extracted in its raw form plus the energy to create such construction plus any other potential or kinetic energy it may receive.
Wa'da'ya'think?

Coincidental.

I believe you.

[eccentrically1]

Unstable perpetual motion would be perpetual motion by any other name. I don’t agree it would be capable of providing the same amount of energy as could have been extracted in its raw form, etc.

Once it reaches stability, you’re left with the materials that haven’t had their potential energy extracted (burned or whatever), that the equivalent unconstructed form has.

[ME]

hmm.. sure you're right.

I attempt this addition:
Purely hypothetical. It depends on the construction of course.
You could build an internal Trebuchet, create rope from wooden strips and use potentially every sliver of elasticity to power a wheel.
I say that there's no point in building it even when it breaks after a long time, but generates less power than a good burn.
But is becomes worthwhile when the construction is capable of producing more energy compared to its specific heat capacity, even when it breaks within a day. We can burn the scraps anyway.
I take this route to think about the possibility that it might be impossible to build Bessler's wheel from metal. Which includes the reason we may not find the solution in perfect formula's.
Does it help?

[Georg Künstler]

Hi ME,
of course do that help, you have specific weight conditions.

Again that example with the rocket.
I think on the rockets at the year change, not the big ones.
They are relative light build, and not from metal.

In my own construction I liked to have a concentrated mass in the shape of a rolling cylinder. A small weight you can throw easier to a far distance.
Then you can create a longer lever.
I assume the rolling cylinders had a high specific density.
my own ones are from steel, 7.2 kg/ccm,
but i liked it to have from lead 11.4 kg/ccm
better will also the density of mercury with 13.6 kg/ccm
But impossible to get it in our time.
So the different materials produces also different torque.
condition is the same building size.

The vibrational behavior of a subject is affected differently when different densities are used.

[Alemania Bessler]

Beloved souls.
Joy should flow through you and you should be filled with love.

Now finally it should be ready, that you should receive knowledge of the third phase, the charching process. Venerable thanks to the silent readers and observers in the background and thank you all for your patience.

Let's first recap.
I briefly summarize what I tried to tell you in advance.

As already described, we have identified the centrifugal force (CF) as THE inflowing force. She is our only train horse, nothing else. And you remember on Johann's words, their power grows in proportionally to the size of the wheel, and so the wheel energy output also gets proportionally larger, depending on how many models you run in a row.

Let's start again with the first phase at 12 o'clock.
As you know, we use 2 different masses. A small and a larger weight. The small weight is manipulated to make it heavier and thereby lift the larger weight. The manipulation we achieve with the fact that the small weight slides extremely fast, from about 12 o'clock to about 3 o'clock, at the periphery of the wheel, and hits there at the end.
In THIS PHASE its speed is always FASTER than the speed of the wheel. As a result, the weight of the small weight becomes much larger in the radial direction (outward). This newly gained weight is now used to carry the larger weight up and out.
By shifting the larger weight, we now reach an overbalance of the wheel. The wheel will move. This is necessary in order to transform the energy output into the third phase (loading process), which also takes place simultaneously. If this did not happen, the circle process can no longer be sustained and the wheel stops.

Now that we have reached the overbalance of the wheel in the first phase, the 2nd phase of the energy output can begin. This process runs from about 3 o'clock to about 8 o'clock without changing the position of the weights. It is important that during this time the charging process is supplied with energy. Excess energy can then be take out directly over the shaft. But only enough to keep the wheel moving.

The third phase is the relaxation- and charging process at the same time. Do you remember the rod with its small weight at the end, what I say? How to move it quickly from about 12 o'clock to about 3 o'clock (see first phase).
The small and the larger weight go the way to 8 o'clock. And here's what's special. It will now be placed in the state of an expiring pendulum. Similar to a pendulum, the weights now reaches a point where it comes to a standstill. Yes, you read it right, it stops again. From then on it will get its normal planetary weight back. His own gravity is now working towards the earth. This fact is used to use the entire rod length (from the periphery to the shaft) as a long lever. This very long lever is again used to tension a spring. Also attached there larger weight acts on a spring. It supports the larger weight, it's lighter, so to speak.
Imagine that the wheel is moving, but the long lever itself is MOTIONLESS and is in the SLEEVE for a short moment. Here, the small and larger weight no longer inhibit the wheel and an even greater overbalance arises.
The charching process continues until about 11 o'clock. This process of relaxation and recharge is used in a practical way, so that the two weights can TILT to the earth and in the meantime tension a spring.

And this recovered energy is stored, simply with a spring.
In the first phase, they are then released again, so that the process can be run at high speed. And you have closed the circle process.

You can see, we need two phases: a high-speed phase to activate the centrifugal force, and a slow phase to avoid the CF and return the moving energy of the wheel in spring force.

These are very compact pieces of information now and I can not say if they have been understood. Maybe you will find the necessary peace and time to think about it.

Thanks for that Moment. Blessing on what is and what was and will come about. Peace to the people of good will.

[silent]

.

[Alemania Bessler]

Use the excellent image of Johann as a good hint. You have exactly three times this quarter in a model. This keeps the wheel always in imbalance. In each of these quarters the mentioned 2 weights are moved.

So you have 3 of 1 pound and 3 of 4 pound weights. That makes 1 model. Switch several models in a row increase the energy output of the wheel. Increase the radius of the wheel to increase the energy output as well. Turn a model over and build it one behind the other, this will give you a bidirectional wheel.

[silent]

.

[Senax]

A seemingly well written individual appears and tantalises you with prose just vague enough to make you concerned. This individual has just enough knowledge to concern those that have been working towards any one of numerous vague ideas. Any one of us who have progressed far beyond this character can easily disregard the legitimacy of the hints and revelations given here. It is quite easy to see where this persons frustration has stopped based upon their ideas.

The big question you should be asking is who is this person. Clearly someone familiar with some of you. The baiting and teasing although well done is a clear indication of the character traits. Time stamps and language skill clearly defines the continent. A ping of well known free email hosting sites with user name variations could very quickly pinpoint an IP :)

Fair warning to those that want to play. I'm sure it will be fun, but ultimately fruitless.
...

Senax post on Carnot - 01 Feb

...
This experiment reminded me of something I'd realised much earlier in
the forum, namely, that in the Carnot Cycle one doesn't need to use
insulation on the adiabatic legs. One can simply use speed.

To follow the isothermal legs accurately change needs to be very slow to allow
as much heat as possible to enter.

Conversely to obtain adiabatic conditions the change needs to be very fast to
prevent as much heat as possible from entering.

Alemania Bessler - 03 Feb

...
You can see, we need two phases: a high-speed phase to activate the centrifugal force, and a slow phase to avoid the CF and return the moving energy of the wheel in spring force.
...

[Georg Künstler]

For me are still to many combinations to get the full picture of a solution.

The first question is how the small weight is accelerated.
It is mentioned by a spring, but what kind of spring.
in our times we use type
https://www.smalley.com/de/wellenfedern ... h0QAvD_BwE

but maybe it is also this type
https://www.biegex-federn.de/index.php/ ... edern.html

or a complete different, which we are not aware of.

The next question is, is this weight accelerated with a push or a pull.

I can see the energy gain, when we do such an action as described, because an acceleration with gravity is more powerful than against.

As in the description we accelerate in the range between 12 o'clock and the process stops at 3 o'clock, it cannot be the white area of the Apologia wheel.

Furthermore we need an locking mechanism, so that the force of the spring can be released at the correct time.

So still with Alemania's help, we cannot solve the riddle and have to use our BRAIN.

[raj]

@ Georg,

With a PULL!

The cart is pulled NOT pushed by the horse!!!

IN our wheels, the weights on the ascending side, are easier to be pulled upwards and aside by swinging strings against gravity THAN pushed upwards by rigid arms or levers.

Raj

[Georg Künstler]

Hi Raj,
for me it is clear that the small weight is pulling the heavy weight, that was not the question.

The question was if the small weight is pushed or pulled when it is accelerated. if the small weight is pulled, then at some point the spring is in the way of the weight.
in that case we need a pulley in the corner of the bigger part of the Apolonia wheel.
Or we take a clock makers spring. this was the question about the type of spring.
So Raj, can you make a sketch drawing where you see the springs located in the Apolonia Wheel?

[raj]

Sorry Georg,
I can't be of much help.

This is the first time I have come across ' Apolonia wheel" being mentioned.

I tried google for some info on it. I found nothing.


Raj.

[silent]

.

[raj]

If the drawing above on this page is the APOLOGIA wheel, then I am completely lost, in what Alemania and Georg are trying to explain, referring to large weight and small weight and springs etc.

For the last 10 years, I have seen nothing in there, apart from a plain wheel drawing.

This is reminding me of the story of the small farmer boy in the applauding crowd watching their king parading, dressed in the latest fabric clothes.

Raj