Kenneth W. Behrendt's Latest Opus

[MrTim]

The problem with stork bills isn't friction, but the amount of force (or actuating mass) needed to make them move, and even then they only work if oriented in certain ways, the rest of the time being in ungainly positions.

As far as KB's design, just the number of moving parts described tells me (from long experience) that it won't work. It might as a computer simulation, but as a physical build, I don't think so...

[ovyyus]

...Herr Orffyreus supposedly gets to the root of the matter when he asserts that children in the lane play with his perpetual motion or so-called superior force.

Was there a children's game that involved storkbills? Which children's game demonstrated Bessler's 'superior force'? Was it marbles, or stick and hoop, kites, spinning tops, skipping rope...?

[sleepy]

When I was a kid I spent summers in the Netherlands, and many kids played with a button suspended on a string.Once wound up, they could keep the button spinning indefinately by pulling the string outward and then giving some slack,then repeating the whole process.

[ovyyus]

Was the 'something extraordinary' MT toys page spinning top what Bessler was referring to in Wagner's quote?

[Georg Künstler]

There are two percussion instruments which I know to fulfill what is on the toy page

https://www.amazon.de/Goki-TT217-Musiki ... sche+natur

and
https://www.amazon.de/gp/slredirect/pic ... ame=sp_atf

when you compare the content of percussion egg with the content of the Apologia wheel, then you can see that they are filled up with granules.
It looks like lead granules.

the percussion egg has some speciality. when you throw it, and it is falling on the ground, it is not rolling as an usual egg.
The percussion egg stops immediately.

This leads to the Soil liquefaction
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soil_liquefaction

An impact on the percussion egg leads to a concentration on one side in the egg.

[Fletcher]

Was the 'something extraordinary' MT toys page spinning top what Bessler was referring to in Wagner's quote?

You could be forgiven for arriving at that conclusion since it appears the spinning top (sans rope, and launcher, if required) was hand drawn on the page in what appears to be a second or later attempt to add further information.

For background JB says he removed certain pages from MT after his arrest (1733) and, apparently replaced them with at least the Toys Page. And the Toys Page seems to have been amended after the fact with the addition of the spinning top.

However there are more than one children's toy in the Toy's Page. In fact they all could perhaps interpreted as childrens' toys of some sort. A and B are somewhat obscure tho look like representations of the same thing. Perhaps a Jacobs Ladder likeness but not conclusively so ? C and D are similar push-pull toys. E is a scissor extension and contraction mech. And lastly we have the spinning top sans string.

Altho it has been discussed before it is probably worth comparing the two main translations for the Toys Page.

Latest translation from wiki page :

"5. Children's game (mine : singular) in which there is something extraordinary for anyone who knows how to apply the game (mine : singular) in a different way."

- Johann Bessler

Original translation from JC's MT hard copy publication :

"5. Children's game (mine : singular) in which there is something extraordinary for anyone who knows how to apply them (mine : plural) in a different way."

- Johann Bessler

The later wiki page translation singles out a single game of importance for something extraordinary. And that might support the later added spinning top hypothesis I guess, as the the game of importance.

The earlier hard copy translation makes no such distinction as to ranking of importance by singling out one game, but the same logic might apply.

I don't think we will ever know conclusively, however the fact remains that the entire page appears to be made up of multiple childrens' toys. And it could be any or all of them, or none of them, in relation to what JB said in the local paper back in 1714 and which Wagner picked up on.

In that vein there may even be a better common toy not shown on this page that is a better 'fit' for some extraordinary action that we have to ultimately deduce. Personally I think the rolling hoop and stick game is a reasonable candidate but only as far as it is a generalized mechanical principle and certainly shows no PM or OU potentialities whatsoever.

I'll probably start another topic and thread shortly to further discuss some of Wagner's comments in his critiques and Bessler's responses in AP to Wagner et al. Perhaps if we rake the coals of their heated exchanges we can find an ember to start a new fire ? I'll give it some thought and start preparing something to have a conversation around.

[agor95]

I am looking forward to your new threads.

It is good to review information to allow for fresh insight and for new members.

Regards

[ovyyus]

Toy page translation:


The inscription is written in old German script later known in slightly modified form as Suetterlin. It reads:

5 Kinder Spiele in welchem Joch auch was besonderes Arbeit, wer Sie auf andere Weise zu applicieren weiss.

The key to the translation lies in the interpretation of the word Joch, the common meaning is yoke, but in this context it could also mean fulcrum or pivot.

The literal translation is:

5 children’s toys in whose yoke (fulcrum, pivot) something special works (is at work), for whoever knows how to apply it in a different manner.

I will give you now my interpretation of what Bessler is saying here.

"There is something special in these 5 toys in the way they move, which can be applied in a different way".

[Fletcher]

There are 5 original toys (A,B,C,D,E) and the addition of the later spinning top with a different fulcrum/pivot and method to the others which otherwise have much in common.

FWIW : between the original translations and Hans it appears to me that there is an alternative use for the usual 5 toy applications/uses shown; an especially useful application is possible; a special application; derived from the shared DNA of all 5 leverage type toys.

The proviso being if you can discern for what purpose it is needed (that may be unintuitive) and, can then implement the arrangement to do your bidding.

JMO's.

[Georg Künstler]

From Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoke

A yoke is a wooden beam normally used between a pair of oxen or other animals to enable them
to pull together on a load when working in pairs
, as oxen usually do; some yokes are fitted to individual animals. There are several types of yoke, used in different cultures, and for different types of oxen. A pair of oxen may be called a yoke of oxen, and yoke is also a verb, as in "to yoke a pair of oxen". Other animals that may be yoked include horses, mules, donkeys, and water buffalo.

From the mail above you see that 5 children are playing this game, so we have to construct a Yoke for 5 children.

Make the yoke it in a line, then you see what happen.
If one child is going in one direction the others must follow.
Including a weight shift in one direction.
Fits to the saying "Kinder spielen auf Säulen".

[Fletcher]

You could be on the right path there Georg, if the statement is taken more literally and Joch (yoke, rather than pivot or fulcrum) is the central theme.

Then Hans's translation reads as there is something special about entraining of actions, imo.

I wonder how Hans managed to read Bessler's handwriting so well ? Do we know the German words he used are correct ?

5 Kinder Spiele in welchem Joch auch was besonderes Arbeit, wer Sie auf andere Weise zu applicieren weiss

The key to the translation lies in the interpretation of the word Joch, the common meaning is yoke, but in this context it could also mean fulcrum or pivot.

The literal translation is:

5 children’s toys in whose yoke (fulcrum, pivot) something special works (is at work), for whoever knows how to apply it in a different manner.

On-line German to English Translator :

"5 children plays (toys) in which (whose) yoke also something special work, who knows how to apply it in another way"

[Georg Künstler]

Hi Fletcher,

Have a look to
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jochbr%C3%BCcke
here you have the connection to "Säulen" again.
A weight on stelzen.
the 5 children representing the stelzen under the Yoke.
A top heavy construction !!.

Some Information is also missing in english.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pile_bridge

[Fletcher]

Georg .. I'm not sure about the relationship you've drawn to columns or pillars. It looks like you've made a connection to the Bessler toys page comments and the AP poetry of children playing among the columns (pillars). I can see how you might but think it's a bit of a long bow drawn.

I make connections too. But in my case sticking from within MT.

Bessler tells us in MT41 "I can assure the reader that there is something special behind the stork's bills." And in MT38 he says "but here is not the place to show the correct application of the stork's bills."

The above mention the words 'special behind' SB's, and 'correct application' of SB's. The connection to the toy page is this .. the toy page has many SB's or pivoted toys on show. Bessler's comments tell us that there are [my interpretation : 5 childrens' games/toys where something special/extraordinary can be at work, if you know how to use them differently i.e. have the correct application].

So, given that, I have a strong suspicion that SB's are the toys of the moment. In that when their mechanics is applied within the wheel a different and beneficial outcome is achieved from the usual and expected leveraging of weights and position.

I think this has to do with one of my self-proclaimed 3 prime directives (2. correct handle-construction of MT10).

So IMO the SB's application is not the entire solution but a mechanical necessity on the path to a solution.

And I think the toys page 'toy' is a different steer to what Wagner picked up on in the Bessler news paper interviews of 1714.

JMO's.

[Sam Peppiatt]

Looks like ovyyus / Hans von Lieven, might be right. *Fulcrums*; that's what all of the toys have in common. How subtle can you get?

I.E., if you get the fulcrums right, the wheel will spin like a top! ( Maybe )

Sam Peppiatt

[ovyyus]

There are 5 original toys (A,B,C,D,E) and the addition of the later spinning top with a different fulcrum/pivot and method to the others which otherwise have much in common.

If the commentary about 5 toys is referring to A, B, C, D, E, then the hand drawn spinning top might be pointing to the required 'different application' that results in 'something extraordinary'. Possible connection between the spinning top and the spinning-like wrappings depicted in D?