Kenneth W. Behrendt's Latest Opus

[Fletcher]

You'd think he'd keep hammering away at Bessler, but for a reason I don't know he apparently went quiet. Was this an admission of defeat ?

I doubt Wagner could easily explain Bessler's long duration test. Bessler's critics grew silent when Karl became his patron. Bessler never publicly demonstrated a wheel after leaving Karl's protection, so there was probably nothing for his critics to rail against.

I doubt he could explain it too. After all he and his fellow critics were the ones who had called for a 4 week test as proof of true PM. Bessler extended the test to well beyond what was asked for, as I presume a kind of double down, to kick the debunking to touch once and for all. Karl died in 1730 whereupon his son took over the reins. Bessler had been granted from Karl (after seeing inside the wheel and later receiving a payment and a job because of its authenticity) a house for life and a salary for 5 years should he leave Karl's employ IIRC (which he eventually did). As you say JB never publicly demonstrated a wheel outside Karrl's protection. He did build a final wheel for his landlord at his death in 1745 tho I believe it was never handed over, or presumably paid for in full. So no public demonstration to perhaps resurrect his previous vocal critics, should they have had a mind to, but I doubt they did.

Bessler's critics (Wagner, Borlach, Gartner et al) did apparently grow silent when Karl became his patron. I would say that was one of the main purposes behind Karl's Attestation which I include excepts beneath for background. When you read it it becomes clear that Karl was having the full and final say.

Thanks again to John Collins and his books for the detail, available at his website for those interested in the full translations (as you will appreciate shortly). N.B. I have truncated parts of the relevant information for expediency and the saving of thread space here. Anyone wishing to read the full context is welcome to and I recommend it.

http://www.free-energy.co.uk/html/books_for_sale.html

On the note of contextual information I include quotes on what Karl did say and was recorded, about Bessler's wheel when he had seen the inside workings. They are from his Attestation Document (first hand) and from Desaguliers writings (second hand) and from a post from John Collins about what he read in a separate letter recounting Karl IINM.

BW.Com Post subject: re: Landgraf Karl von Hessen-Kassel : Mon 03 Sep, 2018 :

I am not in the UK at present but from memory, I have seen a letter to HMs government in which a conversation with the Landgrave is recounted in which the Landgrave says he has seen the inside of the wheel and it is very simple and he is surprised that no one else has thought of it before.

Also I have copy of a letter from Bessler to the Landgrave in which he requests the payment promised to him if he allowed the Landgrave access to his wheels interior. There are other pieces of circumstantial evidence which supports the conclusion that the Landgrave demanded access before he could grant his patronage to Bessler.

... This experiment, Sir, showing the rapidity of the wheel augmenting from the very slow movement I gave it, to an extraordinary rapid one, convinces me more that if I had seen the wheel moving for a whole year, which would not have persuaded me that it was perpetual motion, because it might have diminished little by little until it ceased altogether; but to gain speed instead of losing it, and to increase that speed to a certain degree in spite of the resistance of air and the friction of the axles, I do not see how anyone can doubt the truth of this action. I then turned it in the opposite direction, and the wheel produced the same effect. I examined the bearings of this wheel to see if there was any hidden artifice; but was unable to see anything more than the two small bearings on which the wheel is suspended at its centre.

His Highness, who possesses all the qualities that a great prince should have, has always had consideration for the inventor, and will not use the machine in any way for fear of the secret being discovered before the inventor had received a reward from foreigners. His Highness, who has a perfect understanding of mathematics, assured me that the machine is so simple that a carpenter's boy could understand and make it after having seen the inside of this wheel, and that he would not risk his name in giving these attestations, if he did not have knowledge of the machine...' - letter from Joseph Fischer to J.T. Desaguliers, 1721.

DT Page 192-195

(mine Bessler) And so in this manner I was able to demonstrate, using just three special tests out of the infinite number possible, that my crafted Wheel, consisting as it does entirely of ponderous matter (matter which, as long as it or the Universe exists, will so remain) yet moves and rotates of its own accord, and, like a living creature, can work and perform services of great value ...

For His Serene Highness, Karl, my Prince, himself in person, was pleased to inspect my Wheel and, after a most deeply illuminating investigation, expressed himself in the highest degree content therewith, and happily cognisant of the very great benefits which, after so much inspection, it was now evident would accrue to the world there from. (Benefits which would be all the greater on account of the almost infinitely diverse applications which were possible). Moreover, His Highness expressed his great and just indignation at the wrong which the device and its poor inventor had had to suffer at the hands of frivolous, and indeed malicious, slanderers.

His Serene Highness, therefore, immediately and most graciously made the following proposal, in order to authenticate the effects described above. (No-one would admit that the device could run for a month, but with great bravado, certain people wished to force me to accept the challenge of a bet of 1000 Reichthalers as a means of wresting my secret from me or at any rate to vilify the machine and destroy my reputation.) The proposal, then, was to seal up the machine, once set in motion in its room, with all windows shut and with the double doors locked and bolted, and guarded at all times, to see if the result of the experiment will vindicate the claims I have made for my Wheel, and will overcome and lay low forever the impertinence of those doubters who did not hesitate to accuse the poor inventor of impropriety, deceit, stupidity and hypocrisy.

All this was ordained and carried out in the presence of His Serene Highness in accordance with all due ceremony. With the result that success was complete, the outcome being just as we had desired, for it was duly noted that the machine still continued to revolve after a period of two months with unchanged strength and power. Whereupon, His Serene Highness, despite the fact that I was willing to allow the wheel to revolve for a longer period, declared that the success of the experiment was sufficient, indeed decisive, for the reputation of all the provocative accusations made by my enemies, and that a prolongation of the experiment would be an unnecessary and pointless burden. Indeed, His Highness declared himself ready to proclaim, and sign with his own hand, the following testimonial and Letters Patent with the aim of making, as stated, a complete refutation of all the accusations and doubts against me and my machine scurrilously promulgated by my enemies, and, instead, allowing the true facts to be known.

By The Grace Of God, We, Karl, Landgrave Of Hessen, Prince Of Hersfeld, Count Of Katzenelnbogen, Dietz, Ziegenhaven, Nidda And Schaumburg, hereby make the following testimony and proclamation: -

‘Whereby our Kommerzienrath (mine : counselor) and loyal subject Doctor Johann Ernst Elias Orffyreus has most submissively informed us how he, at our castle Weissenstein, has constructed once more a new machine from the one he first invented and constructed some years ago, i.e. in 1712, firstly at Gera in the Voigtland, and then in 1713, 14 and 15 at Draschwitz and Merseburg in Saxony, where it was publicly demonstrated. This machine, a ‘Perpetuum Mobile’, he continues, has now been rebuilt in a room of the aforementioned castle, after the concession we had granted to him. But he adds how hitherto grave doubts concerning his device have been expressed, including the charge leveled against it that it is not the true P.M., namely a machine which, when once set in motion, continues thus of its own inner being, without (being driven by) clockwork, weights that require raising, or by springs, so long as its materials retain their integrity, unless it is deliberately interrupted in its persistent motion. He adds many details about the defamatory remarks regarding him and his machine which have been widely disseminated in public journals, and that he has been challenged in wagers that his machine could not continue in motion for a period of four weeks. As a result of this, our aforementioned Kommerzienrath most humbly approached us to request that we might most graciously not only inspect his aforesaid invention, but might also, while the machine was running, arrange that it should be most carefully protected; in particular that all routes by which persons might have access to it or tamper with it in any way, should, in order to pre-empt any further objections or doubts, be thoroughly sealed up, and, moreover, be put under guard, with the aim that the device should, after the lapse of a sufficient period of time, be re-inspected, and, on ensuring validation of its genuineness, be given, most graciously, the stamp of an official princely testimonial and Letters Patent, thereby also making unnecessary the payment of any duties. And therefore it has pleased us to accede most graciously to this request, and, from a love of truth and in order to appreciate the real nature of this so important device we have spared no effort or expense to this end.

It is now attested and witnessed in the true words of His Highness what was indeed discovered to be the truth about the much-discussed Orffyrean P M. – namely that its motion depends neither on external force or assistance, nor, especially, on any internal clockwork device of wheels and springs. It more than fulfills the requirements of an almost countless number of learned prescriptions as to what any credible device laying claim to Perpetual Motion status must perform. Indeed, this long-sought and much-desired machine, or so-called Perpetual Motion. (T.N. – ‘pure artificiale quoad durantem materiam’ [mine : the purely artificial durable material] is added after P.M. – this Latin phrase is then described a few lines later, marked *) is a revolving wheel, which is able to run, by means of its own innate momentum, * for as long as its innate structure and character is not compromised, and so long as it does not fly to pieces, smash or break, or become defective or damaged. But, since the principle is viable, and the material of which this device is constructed is not subject to defect, lack of durability or brittleness, there remains no doubt that it could, and would, if started, continue to rotate indefinitely. As an emphatic proof of its capabilities this device, though really little more than a model, has, to our not inconsiderable pleasure, already passed the long-demanded month-long test, and, what is more, has in effect passed it twice. For, after said Wheel had been continuously, closely and many times observed for three whole months by many persons, both local and from further afield, and of both high and low estate, I caused it, on 12th November last year (1717) to be locked away in a sealed room. I allowed the Wheel to run for two weeks, and then, on 26th November, I repaired to the place once more, accompanied by several of my Ministers, and in person opened up the intact seals, checked everything thoroughly, and with my own hands brought to rest the Wheel, still revolving with undiminished energy, without violent shock. Then, with some assistance from the Master himself, the Inventor, the Wheel was brought back into motion once more, and still greater security precautions were taken to prevent interference. Not only were all windows locked tight, but also all the doors, including those in the corridor leading to the room where the Wheel was situated. This was all done in Our presence and that of Our accompanying retinue, and guards were posted and seals applied. After all this was performed, six whole weeks were allowed to elapse, during which no one was allowed near the machine. Then, on the 4th day of January of the Lord’s new year, 1718, we betook ourselves again to our castle at Weissenstein, where we not only recognised our impressed seals, noting that they were completely intact, but also, after the opening up of the doors and window-shutters had been completed, we examined the Orffyrean Wheel, still continuing unabated in its revolutions, from many angles, and noted, both in the room and outside, that there was not a single trace of anything that could give rise to the slightest suspicion. And so, notwithstanding the fact that the inventor freely offered a longer test run, we considered (especially as the already completed run of eight weeks had exceeded by a factor of two that which had been demanded by his adversaries) that this was quite unnecessary.

In order that all these things might be confirmed all the more strongly, we have, yielding to the inventor’s most humbly expressed request, not only appended to this testimonial our own signature, adding to it the great Seal of our Dynasty, after the most mature consideration, but further, we strongly exhort all people, of whatever class or rank they may be (and in the case of our own subjects we not only exhort but command) that our aforementioned Kommerzienrat Orffyreus, who, by virtue of his service with us enjoys our protection, should on account of this, his most wonderful, but as yet not widely appreciated invention, not be burdened by unjust accusations, but rather should, when he requests it or is otherwise seen to require it, enjoy all the assistance, protection and promotional goodwill that can be offered him. The which we are at any time most graciously pleased to repeat on request, even in legally binding terms, to any person, depending upon his rank; to our own subjects this shall serve as a solemn proclamation.

Kassel, 27th May, 1718 KARL

1. The wheel is made entirely of ponderous matter/material "(matter which, as long as it or the Universe exists, will so remain)". This was written by Bessler in DT and which included Karl's Attestation of 1718. The book was publicly available. If Karl did not personally proof read it then I would suggest someone in his service did on his behalf. Nothing would have gone in there that did not bare scrutiny or was not attributable to Karl.

The upshot being that the entire wheel was made of ponderous matter i.e. it shall remain, not diminish over time. It looks like very little room for fuels of any sort, IMO.

2. The wheel was understood completely by Karl, it was very simple. It could be understood with only a short viewing time. It should have been thought of by others. It self-moved by virtue of its own innate momentum (mine : .. of its ponderous matter of which it was constructed).

[ovyyus]

It looks like very little room for fuels of any sort, IMO.

I agree. The use of a fuel or anything else that required replenishment or restoration would be prosecuted as fraud. In that case Karl would have to be party to such fraud, which seems very unlikely. While I have shown that a hidden fuel source might explain Bessler's long duration test, I'm far from convinced that such an explanation is necessarily correct.

[Fletcher]

We have a bit of a quandary.

You can probably replicate Bessler's power tests and long duration test by using reasonably high calorific fuels (like alcohol) that eventually need replacement, combined with a previously undiscovered heat engine technology that didn't come along for another 100 years or so. But an end buyer, had one eventuated, might have called fraud or deception from all that was said and written which could have sullied Karl's and Bessler's reputations, perhaps irreparably. It doesn't seem likely.

Steam engines were in their infancy and was at one point patroned by Karl (Papin). So it seems unlikely that an alternative heat engine technology of perhaps substantially less energy density would have any on-going interest to Karl. Steam engines would start the industrial revolution and their potential must have been recognised in Europe.

It seems neither Bessler nor Wagner were either aware of Drebbel and his Perpetual Automation Clock, from ambient pressure and temperature differences, of around 100 years earlier (known about in London circles). Or, they knew of him and it, but did not consider his device a "true PMM" (altho others did, at least with Cox's later clock). Or more specifically Drebbels motive force was not considered one of the known sources of mechanical power they outline in their exchanges as suitable or not for "true PM".

So here we have the opposite situation. Real ambient forces that could do real mechanical work. But no one has been able to scale to Bessler's proportions and do similar work. So this motive force for his wheels seems just as unlikely, IMO.

[ovyyus]

To be fair, everything seems unlikely for one reason or another. Which brings us right back to the starting line... again.

[Fletcher]

I don't know about you, but I have a tendency in this search to be a bit like a broad scanning radar, looking for a suitable target. Every now and then I hit upon something that "might be a way forward" and go to target lock mode. I can become entrenched and invested in an idea until I've worked it thru to the best of my ability. When the dust settles I can move on again. Linear comes to mind. I have less and less "ahh huh" moments these days because I try to learn from my mistakes and I must be doing a reasonable job.

To be fair, what would be better than revisiting what Bessler had to say on the matter. He did attribute his success to devine intervention but I'm a little more interested not in his sociopolitics and religious beliefs but on the elements of human nature and diligence and dedication aspects that purportedly lead to his success, so I leave them for the reader to search for himself.

AP Chapter XLIX. ...Even if it has remained many thousands of years undiscovered up till now, I believe that God would have granted its discovery if craftsmen had been more diligent in their search for it. If someone like myself had hunted after it, it would have been in the world a long time ago.

But, to get back to your questions, I'll try to be more specific. It is undeniably true that at times there have been clever people, with special talents, who have sought the Mobile. But, for the most part, they have been people in positions, professions or offices of various kinds; and people for whom such duties are a constant preoccupation have little time left over for leisure. Even if they did have the odd hour to spare, it wouldn't be enough for Mobile research. Indeed, before such a person could get far with his calculations, build some models, and even do scant justice to a single facet of the problem, very many years would have passed. Things would then get to the stage where there'd be some doubts followed by destruction! Probably there'd even come the dreaded statement that "No one on this earth will ever find the secret of the Mobile!"

And there would be the best minds - not just people of discernment, but people who had developed various practical skills during the course of their professional lives. Others would have possessed theoretical knowledge only. These would have neglected their work, and, for the actual construction of their planned Mobile would have had to call on the services of a craftsman. For obvious reasons things went even worse for such people. Frankly, no one has ever made a successful profession out of mere searching. But I spent many long years diligently getting to master these skills. Day and night I toiled with hardly any respite, searching all the time, until, with the strength that God has lent me, I found the way to make 100 odd machines. Only after all those did I find the Mobile I had thirsted after. I, more than anyone, know what's been involved, and what patience is required.

Paraphrased, he stuck to the task for longer, was more diligent and focused than most, learned some build skills, but was not any smarter than some who had looked before him.

The takeaway is that he hit upon an idea. And when he experimented with it he realised why ALL the others had been wrong. So it was the same problem with a solution offering itself from a different perspective. He had learned about and from the perspectives that did not work, and found his way to something that could work.

I would say that digitally rereading JC's books again (without buyng into JB's angst) after so many long years has been entertaining and fun. I would recommend it to anyone to perhaps clear some cobwebs and get a fresh perspective. It couldn't hurt, even if it does feel like you're back at the start line for a moment. JMO's.

Hey, or maybe reads Ken's book, there's an idea.

[eccentrically1]

One thing in support of your theory ECC1 is in Wagners' Critiques IIRC.

Wagner is discussing what is true PM. He doesn't include Cornelis Drebbel who invented an ambient force driven clock in 1598. And demonstrated it in London 4 years later IINM. Maybe he was unaware of him ?

I'd have to look up Bessler's Rebuttal in Part Two of AP to see what JB says in reply. Sometimes omissions are as important as facts. Perhaps JB wasn't aware of Drebbel as well, or chose to ignore him for good reason ?

I'll see what I can find later.

Of course a major mechanical overhaul and energy source like you suggest would work on just about anything. And that fits the 'applied in a different manner'. It fails on other levels tho, imo.

If it weren't as you suggest then it must be something else mechanically derived, that JB is alluding to.

I'll never dissuade you from your argument, and that's ok. What I do like to do is try explore everything and see if positions can be backed up objectively. That just may not be possible because JB was so tight lipped on certain things.

Sorry been away for a bit.
I don't think we'll ever know if either Wagner or Bessler were aware of Drebbel's invention and if they were ignoring it in the critique and rebuttal. It would seem if Wagner was aware of it, he would have mentioned it as a prior claim, and a possibility for explaining B's wheels? Or he also thought it wouldn't be as powerful as B's wheels and dismissed it before doing any research? It would be understandable why tight-lipped JB wouldn't mention it in his rebuttal if he was using a similar technique. So perhaps that reasoning for Drebbel not getting a mention in their papers supports my opinion.

We do know that it existed and was accepted as a perpetual motion even though we know better now. I can't stress that point enough. Wikipedia says he obtained a patent for it, and for a water supply system in 1598. On a side note I remember being surprised at the parallels between their lives because of similar studies, life events, criticisms from skeptics, etc.

The other point I can't stress enough is if JB found a way to mechanically engineer his wheels to take a tiny pressure and/or temp gradient and boost it for those demonstrations, then we'll never find it if we're not looking for that way. And, as we know, from the thread on Downwind faster than the wind for example, for there to be KE - motion - you have to have a gradient to tap. Gravity and other conservative forces, even dreaded fictitious forces, have no such gradient. Those are blind alleys tho I know I can't dissuade anyone from that argument either.

[Sam Peppiatt]

Yea,

It's back to gravity-------------I think Hans von lieven might have cracked the problem wide open!

The fulcrums / pivots ARE the key issue. If you can get them right, in the right places or right way, the wheel will work, (maybe).

Yea, I know, gravity is a dirty word------------------------------

Sam Peppiatt

[Georg Künstler]

Fletcher wrote:
Bessler wrote:
AP Chapter XLIX. ...

.Even if it has remained many thousands of years undiscovered up till now, I believe that God would have granted its discovery if craftsmen had been more diligent in their search for it. If someone like myself had hunted after it, it would have been in the world a long time ago.

Here I have the same opinion as Bessler.
Any engineer will be able to make such a wheel, if he can handle it different only in his head.

A impact is good if it is used for your advantage.
It is only a different move principle of the motion.
Often described with a half full bottle of water.
An abrupt stop of the bottle will cause the liquid pressed in one corner of the bottle.
The same will happen with the rolling and blocked cylinder.

So we can also build a wheel with some liquids and a check valve.
Fulfill the insight: it will pass a closed door.

[Fletcher]

@ ECC1 .. whilst it's possible Wagner and Bessler may not have heard of Drebbel or his automated clock exploits, members of the London Royal Society would have (Society having been established in 1660) and where Drebbel moved to. It would be likely imo that Karl or his advisors would have heard of him, especially given Karl's interests. Yet Karl still called Bessler's a true PM with no mention or comparison to Drebbel. Then we have the witness (various eminent men themselves) statements and letters to various other eminent men in positions of influence including the London Royal Society and Newton. Desaguliers comes to mind. None of them mention any such comparison to Drebbel and his machines in the correspondence I've read. You'd think that Drebbel would be front and center of your thoughts about Bessler's wheels unless there really just was no comparison when seen in the flesh so to speak.

@ Sam .. gravity and gravity powered wheels aren't dirty words here. It's a discussion board where conversations are had in a forum setting. Gravity enabled wheels are on the table with whatever anyone else can suggest, and can make a reasonable argument for, might have powered JB's wheels. I'd say the far bigger majority of members think that gravity was instrumental in Bessler's solution to PM, whether they are active members or not. I for one am making the argument that on balance of probabilities Bessler's wheels were gravity powered, imo. As always its just a matter for any of us to prove it.

Hans von Lieven said Joch translated as Yoke. The word Joch can be seen quite clearly in Bessler's notes. Here's what Hans said again.

Toy page translation:

The inscription is written in old German script later known in slightly modified form as Suetterlin. It reads:

5 Kinder Spiele in welchem Joch auch was besonderes Arbeit, wer Sie auf andere Weise zu applicieren weiss.

The key to the translation lies in the interpretation of the word Joch, the common meaning is yoke, but in this context it could also mean fulcrum or pivot.

The literal translation is:

5 children’s toys in whose yoke (fulcrum, pivot) something special works (is at work), for whoever knows how to apply it in a different manner.

I will give you now my interpretation of what Bessler is saying here.

"There is something special in these 5 toys in the way they move, which can be applied in a different way".

So as you say it could be that "the fulcrums / pivots ARE the key issue", or, perhaps the actual word of yoke (harnessing) is the key issue ?!

JMO's.

[Georg Künstler]

a

Joch

is a yoke.

You can compare it with 5 children wearing a beam.

in different applications you can use it as
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battering_ram

This time the english translation is better than the german one.
Again the impact is good.
It is used for a specific task.

[Senax]

...
Gravity and other conservative forces, even dreaded fictitious forces, have no such gradient.
Those are blind alleys though I know I can't dissuade anyone from that argument either.

Newtonian gravity (NG) doesn't have a gradient
but Ersatz gravity, (EG), which many people think of as
centrifugal force, does have a gradient.

At the centre it is zero and at the circumference it is a maximum.

[Sam Peppiatt]

Georg,

It's 5 toys not 5 children. How is a yoke common to the 5 toys? If you count the pivots there are about 50 of them. I don't know any thing; but what if Hans is right?

And like ECC1 suggested; maybe it's the MANNER in which the pivots are applied. Any way it has given me encouragement.

Right Fletcher! The burden always lies with me-------------------------

Sam Peppiatt

[Georg Künstler]

Hi Sam,

wie Kinder spielen auf den Säulen

and not

ein Kind spielt auf den Säulen

Maybe I am wrong and really 5 children toys are used in a different way.

If it is your interpretation then we must find and identify this 5 toys before we can puzzle it together.

[Fcdriver]

When and what time frame are you guys going to stop with this fictional crap it can’t be done? When is reality going to set in that Helmholts was wrong? No there was no outside fuel causing rotation! There can be a outside force,,adding to rotation by definition can be called work done by the wheel.

[eccentrically1]

@ ECC1 .. whilst it's possible Wagner and Bessler may not have heard of Drebbel or his automated clock exploits, members of the London Royal Society would have (Society having been established in 1660) and where Drebbel moved to. It would be likely imo that Karl or his advisors would have heard of him, especially given Karl's interests. Yet Karl still called Bessler's a true PM with no mention or comparison to Drebbel. Then we have the witness (various eminent men themselves) statements and letters to various other eminent men in positions of influence including the London Royal Society and Newton. Desaguliers comes to mind. None of them mention any such comparison to Drebbel and his machines in the correspondence I've read. You'd think that Drebbel would be front and center of your thoughts about Bessler's wheels unless there really just was no comparison when seen in the flesh so to speak.

Don't you think if Karl had known about Drebbel's inventions - which as you say, he probably did given his interests - he couldn't have mentioned them in reference to Bessler's wheels without 1) giving away the secret, or 2) connecting Bessler to Drebbel's reputation as a sorceror/magician? Karl was limited to what he could say.

The other witnesses statements don't reference Drebbel because they didn't see the secret. How could they know whether or not that was how they worked? They testified it was true PM, right, but again, that definition included Drebbel's method.
That there didn't seem to be any comparison "in the flesh" because of say, how fast his wheels turned, still doesn't rule out that method. In fact, it could have been the very thing that fooled the witnesses. Bessler could have taken the method and improved on it. Remember they both shared similar interests, traits and personalities.

Here is a book written about Drebbel's demonstrations of refrigeration and submarine:

http://movies2.nytimes.com/books/first/ ... -zero.html