"The Impossibility of Perpetual Motion Machines"

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Furcurequs
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"The Impossibility of Perpetual Motion Machines"

Post by Furcurequs »

That's the title of the most recent PBS Space Time video that came out last week - which is part of PBS Digital Studios. It already has over 300,000 views on youtube and close to 2000 comments.
Bad ideas come and go in physics. But there’s one bit of nonsense that is perhaps more persistent than all others: the perpetual motion machine. ...
Nonsense!

Seems to be standard fare when it comes to mainstream thought on such matters. It does play a bit with the concept of "negative mass," however. There's also an earlier video that presented a challenge on designing a perpetual motion machine using negative mass.

Anyway, I thought some here might be interested.

"The Impossibility of Perpetual Motion Machines"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rckrnYw5sOA

(Again, for the record, I believe that if I had a "working" device of one of the types I'm personally hypothesizing and investigating that used either magnets or gravity, it wouldn't actually meet the technical definition of a "perpetual motion machine" but would rather change our understanding of gravitational and/or magnetic fields. It - or they - would then provide a means for accessing available energy that scientists in the mainstream are taught to believe is not there to be accessed.)
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re: "The Impossibility of Perpetual Motion Machines&quo

Post by justsomeone »

I enjoyed the video but it certainly won't stop me from building and designing.

If a perpetual motion machine works and is powered by gravity, what " kind " would it be?
. I can assure the reader that there is something special behind the stork's bills.
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re: "The Impossibility of Perpetual Motion Machines&quo

Post by agor95 »

Lets say it is the four kind. The kind that works.
[MP] Mobiles that perpetuate - external energy allowed
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re: "The Impossibility of Perpetual Motion Machines&

Post by ME »

Nice video, looks complete!
Wiki/Science wrote:Science (from the Latin word scientia, meaning "knowledge") is a systematic enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the universe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science
For the fun of it, in an unmonetized unreviewed random forum post, let's try to poke back a bit. Let's figure out which one is a more scientific hoax:
  1. Things considered valid because it brings balance yet remains unobserved;
  2. Things observed yet considered invalid because it brings unbalance.
  • Dark matter
    Mysterious non-luminous matter (and/or radiation) comprising most of the matter in our observable universe
Galaxies are not bright enough for its rotation and should explode but don't, and the universe is expanding too fast and shouldn't explode but still is...
That spooky gravity over a distance...!!
And to rectify assumed implications we need to introduce non-self-interacting dark-stuffff.
With a tiny bit of mathematical insight we could all imagine the probable necessity, but that doesn't make it right to tweak the data until it fits the formula's and then tweak the formula to handle that invented data.

We classify this dark-stuff on the quantity that needs to be tweaked. So we have dark-matter to handle mass inconsistencies, dark-energy to handle energy inconsistencies, dark-force for the fun of it.... and dark-fluid, but that one has nothing to do with fluid but flexes with negative mass.
And most importantly, this dark-stuff is never experimentally verified, only somewhat implied. Seems totally non-scientific to me.
No one really knows what the other scientist is fiddling exactly to curve-fit the data of interest, unless specifically instructed by some paper. And when it does finally match then there's no use for it in real life nor reproducible from the ground up by any other with similar interest in numerological strategies.
  • Perpetual motion
    work is continuously done without an external supply of energy
A non-working perpetual motion machine, on the other hand, simply refuses to work... and we can throw all kinds of science to such observation in order to attempt to explain how and why.
Researching perpetual motion teaches a lot about the basis of mechanics, physics, its mathematics and (most important) deductive reasoning skills...
Every one can try it at their own pace, at their own level of understanding yet with reproducible results (when opinion gets out of the way!). And from there we can all build on previous successes and failures and become experts even when we will never ever see a self-rotating thing.
It's possible we collectively haven't exhausted all the possibilities that could enable discovery of perpetual motion. While it's more safe to assume any new attempt is not that unique, on itself it doesn't harm to try anyway because at the very minimum it raises levels of understanding.


One could claim that dark matter theories has more satisfied 'costumers' than those perpetual motion 'hobbyists'. But that's hardly a solid argument, and actually shows the issue.
True, perhaps dark matter research will probably lead to better understanding and better mathematical descriptions of the universe, and we may need this temporary scientific world-wide screw-up to get there eventually. But with the same obstacles, know that a working perpetual motion machine will have a more profound influence on the entire universe.

When the majority (85%) of the universe needs to be invented and addressed to this so-called dark-stuff for which there's no other reason than to explain things unknown, then that also implies that we simply don't understand the majority of reality... (Just say that we don't know).
Hopefully without getting self-deluded we can also state that Perpetual motion could be implied to exist from this gravity-implied dark-stuff.

While we're at it, let's introduce another idea to think about:
Perhaps it is the necessary purpose of universal evolution to invent 'perpetual motion' that feeds* on dark-energy in order to guarantee the rebirth of our universe. #Duty-bound.

* When working with a source that can't be detected then do we consider it to be a trick, or do we consider it to be self-contained?
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re: "The Impossibility of Perpetual Motion Machines&quo

Post by Bill_Mothershead »

"Impossible is just a big word thrown around by small men who find it easier to live in the world they've been given than to explore the power they have to change it. Impossible is not a fact. It's an opinion. Impossible is not a declaration. It's a dare. Impossible is potential. Impossible is temporary. Impossible is nothing."

-- Muhammad Ali
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re: "The Impossibility of Perpetual Motion Machines&quo

Post by ME »

TODO: Update EULA that insufficient belief breaks warranty.
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re: "The Impossibility of Perpetual Motion Machines&quo

Post by raj »

A self'-moving machine is not a PMM
A self-moving machine is gravity powered that can be started and stopped at will by man.
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re: "The Impossibility of Perpetual Motion Machines&quo

Post by Sam Peppiatt »

Typical prick scientist's!! I would love to prove them wrong---------------

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Re: re: "The Impossibility of Perpetual Motion Machines

Post by Furcurequs »

justsomeone wrote:I enjoyed the video but it certainly won't stop me from building and designing.

If a perpetual motion machine works and is powered by gravity, what " kind " would it be?
Hey justsomeone,

A perpetual motion machine of the third kind would be nothing more than a kinetic energy storage device. An "ideal" flywheel would fit into this category. This sort of machine, then, would just make for a good "battery."

So, it can't be that one.

A perpetual motion machine of the second kind would convert microscopic kinetic energy of the ambient heat in the environment to kinetic energy made available at a macroscopic level. Scientists accept that the heat energy is there, of course. They just don't believe we can harness it in such a way.

So, it can't be that one.

A perpetual motion machine of the first kind would output kinetic energy without converting it from some other energy source. It's defined, then, as a hypothetical machine which would create energy from nothing.

This is where a gravity "powered" device currently lives in the minds of mainstream scientists - but because they simply don't believe that the gravitational field can itself be an actual source of energy. They, with their long held notion of "gravitational potential energy" only think of the gravitational field as something in which energy can be stored and retrieved, sort of like storing potential energy in a spring, and not also as a source of energy in its own right.

So, a demonstrably working gravity powered device would not fit the true definition of a perpetual motion machine of the first kind or of any kind. It would not be a perpetual motion machine at all. It would instead be a device that exploits a power "source" that current mainstream scientists just don't (yet) recognize.

I think the distinction is actually very important, for one who is thinking in terms of an energy source would be aware of what is required to convert its input to a kinetic energy output. One who is trying to build a perpetual motion machine of the first kind would have to create energy from nothing - which, of course, means he would have to start with nothing and work with nothing and yet somehow end up with something powerful. That just doesn't work for me.

I hope you see that I'm not just playing word games but rather emphasizing that we may need to rethink gravity itself.

So, the short answer is that a "perpetual motion machine" powered by gravity would not really be a perpetual motion machine at all.
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re: "The Impossibility of Perpetual Motion Machines&quo

Post by Georg Künstler »

Furcurequs wrote:
So, the short answer is that a "perpetual motion machine" powered by gravity would not really be a perpetual motion machine at all.


I agree, it is not a perpetual motion machine, it is only a converter.

Gravity energy can be converted into different forms of energy.
Condition: you must allow gravity to do its work.
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re: "The Impossibility of Perpetual Motion Machines&quo

Post by MrTim »

Well, if you go by the definitions or conditions set up by the PM deniers, of course it's impossible.
Which is why I don't go by their definitions or conditions. ;-)

We are the ones doing the investigating, so therefore we are the ones to set (our own) definitions. Though we may not be in agreement with our various methods, we still have that common goal: "It is not impossible."
The naysayers can go find something other to do to waste their own time, rather than ours.

Now, even when we re-discover PM, they'll still find some way to deny it. Which is fine.
We'll know better... ;-)

So let's prove the *****'s wrong. ;-)
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re: "The Impossibility of Perpetual Motion Machines&quo

Post by Sam Peppiatt »

Mr. Tim,

I have to agree with you. And for a farm boy like me; if it runs all day and don't eat no hay, it must be perpetual motion------------------

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re: "The Impossibility of Perpetual Motion Machines&

Post by John Collins »

Excellent posts from Furcurequs and Mr Tim, (good to see you’re still here.)
Gravity as a source of energy is a concept which, even here, has taken a long time to gain partial acceptance. It’s a gradual attrition of resistance to the idea.

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re: "The Impossibility of Perpetual Motion Machines&quo

Post by AB Hammer »

Furcurequs

Interesting video. It is the typical stand of science. Then it ends with a fishing for something that might work in their opinion.
"Our education can be the limitation to our imagination, and our dreams"

So With out a dream, there is no vision.

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re: "The Impossibility of Perpetual Motion Machines&quo

Post by ME »

John Collins wrote:Gravity as a source of energy is a concept
One is a vector, the other a scalar....
Please go the distance with explaining how this concept blends them together!
Marchello E.
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