Clues list

[kastir]

Can anyone tell me where the 3rd clue in the list comes from?
"Weights gained force from their own swinging."
- Bessler

[ME]

Comes from Bessler...

In October of 1719, Orffyreus published a small book, or pamphlet, both in German and Latin, entitled "Perpetual Motion Triumphant, by Orffyreus."
-- P. Verance

[Fletcher]

https://www.besslerwheel.com/wiki/index ... rtal:Clues

These 'clues' were compiled some time ago and entered onto the wiki page. I can't remember who that person was, but it pays imo to read AP and DT for yourself to give fuller context.

[ovyyus]

Inward structure of the wheel is of a nature according to the laws of perpetual motion, so arranged that certain disposed weights once in rotation, gain force from their own swinging/motion, and must continue their movement as long as their structure does not lose its position and arrangement. Unlike all other automata, such as clocks or springs or other hanging weights which require winding up or whose duration depends on the chain which attaches them, on the contrary these weights are the essential parts and constitute perpetual motion itself; as from them is received the universal movement which they must exercise so long as they remain out of the centre of gravity; and when they come to be placed together, so arranged that they can never obtain equilibrium, or the punctum quietus which they unceasingly seek in their wonderfully speedy flight, one or another of them must apply its weight vertically to the axis, which in its turn must also move. - Das Triumphirende Perpetuum Mobile, Bessler, 1719

http://www.orffyre.com/quotes.html

[ovaron]

Can anyone tell me where the 3rd clue in the list comes from?
"Weights gained force from their own swinging."
- Bessler

This statement is based on a false translation. Das Triumphirende page ( 20 )

Bessler wrote nothing about swinging. He used the term "Schwung", which is not the same as swinging. Swinging means back and forth movement, but "Schwung" must be translated with momentum or swing ( e.g. The golfer has a good swing.)
Better you forget this so called "clue".

[Johndoe2]

Im not sure i am getting the nuance.
Although i would like to point out that there were multiple weights.
If you are saying the word should be “momentum� . Then it makes the message more precise imo and should be corrected and not be disregarded.

[Fletcher]

Can anyone tell me where the 3rd clue in the list comes from?

"Weights gained force from their own swinging."

- Bessler

This statement is based on a false translation. Das Triumphirende page ( 20 )

Bessler wrote nothing about swinging. He used the term "Schwung", which is not the same as swinging. Swinging means back and forth movement, but "Schwung" must be translated with momentum or swing ( e.g. The golfer has a good swing.)
Better you forget this so called "clue".

"It more than fulfils the requirements of an almost countless number of learned prescriptions as to what any credible device laying claim to Perpetual Motion status must perform. (page 30) Indeed, this long-sought and much desired machine, or so-called Perpetual Motion. (T.N. - pure artificiale quoad durantem materiam is added after P.M. – this Latin phrase is then described a few lines later, marked *) is a revolving wheel, which is able to run, by means of its own innate momentum, *…" DT 195 Karl

Bessler's Principle of Perpetual Motion :

preponderance > innate momentum > excess impetus > excess weight

Synonyms for the same thing !

[ME]

For the specific reference, I think I agree with Ovaron.

I had a look. Tried to decipher what I found at Das Triumphirende Perpetuum Mobile page 19-20

• Die innerliche Structur dieses Tympani oder Rades ist von so
  einer Beschaffenheit / nach welcher etliche ad leges motus mechanici
  perpetui, a priori, id est, scientifice
  demonstrabilis, disponirte Gewichte / dasselbe nach empfangener einmaligen
  rotation, oder nach einmal imprimirter Force des Schwunges /
  ohnaufhörlich treiben / und seine Umwalssung continuiren müssen / so
  lange nemlich die ganze Structur ihr esse behält- ohne einige fernere
  Beyhülffe und Zuthun äusserlicher Bewegungs Kraiffte / welche einer
  Restitution nohtig hätten: dergleichen bey andern Automatis, als Uhrwercken. ..<etc>

I roughly translate it like this:

• The intrinsic structure of this drum or container is of such
  nature that several known laws of perpetual motion are scientifically demonstrable.
  Where distributed weights do the same thing after receiving a one-time
  rotation. Or after a singular imprinted Force of momentum
  without stopping / and must continue its circulation /
  so long as actually the complete structure keeps its essence. Without any further
  help and additional external driving force which would
  require replenishment, just like any other machines, like clocks...

Because of this "einmal Force des Swunges", a one-time kick, it doesn't sound like a clue of the internals but more about a general signature of perpetual motion from the outside.

(Sure the DT-text is a bit longer than the part I selected... maybe later)


Edit:
erliche --> etliche :: several

[Georg Künstler]

I have made a snap shot from the text above;

scientifice
demonstrabilis, disponirte Gewichte / dasselbe nach empfangener einmaligen
rotation, oder nach einmal imprimirter Force des Schwunges /

This leads to
disponierte Gewichte and
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposition_(Orgel)

then
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traktur#Registertraktur
again here is the english wikipedia really bad against the german version.


and later it leads to
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... brett1.jpg

So here you have the clue that the weights are displaced after the first move.

[ME]

Georg, I gladly stand corrected when making mistakes. In this case: transcription and translation.

But I really don't see the specifics pointing to an organ. I suspect you made some slippery slope conclusion there.
It may actually be meant as an organ-register, but that would be an interpretation.
It's best to separate interpretation from translation. Actually, that's why I think a new translation is apparently needed.

Sure, organs also circumstantially "dispose" their keys into registers.
In Bessler's text I read "dispose" as some deliberate general arrangement, and being in some ordered place.
One word "dispose", no "organ".
Not an opinion, just not there.

--
I read P.Verance's translation as similar as mentioned by Ovyyus earlier.

The inward structure of the wheel is of a nature according to the laws of mechanical perpetual motion, so arranged that by disposed weights once218 in rotation they gain force from their own swinging, and must continue their movement as long as their structure does not lose its position and arrangement.
Project Gutenberg: Perpetual Motion - Percy Verance

It's a bit weird to correct a century old translation, which is likely checked by John Collins and others, and shouldn't be easy to overthrown by some ad hoc translation attempt I did here.
Yet I read something different.
For such a potentially important clue (usually interpreted as a continuously gaining force from mere swinging), this new translation attempt needs a second opinion (peer review)

[ovaron]

If you look at the corresponding Latin text, you can see what Bessler really says.
"accepto semel impulso "

He talks about a one-time received impulse.

[Georg Künstler]

He talks about a one-time received impulse.

So how can we get an one-time received impulse when it is stated that he turned the outer wheel.
Bessler don't start the wheel with an impulse, he turned it an the impulse was generated inwards of the wheel.
An impulse generated from gravity, like something that fail over.

But no wheel is powered from impacts, i can read on an other clue.
So we hear 8 impacts, but the impacts are not the driver.
And that is also true, because the impact is there to arrange the weights.
The weights are displaced after the first move.

[ovaron]

The Kassel wheel, which he describes in Das Triumphierende, needed a one-time starting impulse. Bessler therefore spoke of the one-time momentum ("Schwung") that had to be given to the wheel. As far as I remember, he says elsewhere that the impact of the weights is NOT the driving force. At his first wheels he dampened this impact with felt, at the later bi-directional wheels not any more. It is possible that it could not dampen the impact noise of the bi-directional wheels. According to John Collins' theory, Bessler combined two unidirectional counter-rotating wheels. It could be that only the backward running wheel emitted the impact noise.
The fact that the weights have to be rearranged again and again is undoubtedly correct.

Originally this thread was about the "swinging of the weights." In my opinion this clue is simply based on a translation error.

[Georg Künstler]

Hi Ovaron,

Bessler therefore spoke of the one-time momentum ("Schwung") that had to be given to the wheel

As i have interpreted it, it was not a "Schwung" what he has to give to the wheel. I have interpreted it that the outer wheel was turned out of position and after that is makes the first impact.
With the outer turn, you can lift something inside, until it will fail over.
You generate a one time "SCHWUNG".
In this case you deal with an tilting, repeating swinging afterwards, released from the first "SCHWUNG".

[ovaron]

Hi Georg,
that Bessler said, "weights gained force from their own swinging" is just not true. Of course that doesn't exclude that it might be so.


The old German is also often not completely or exactly understandable for German native speakers. But the Latin text is unambiguous. Bessler does not speak of swinging but of a one-time impulse. It is undisputed, I believe, that this (impuls or movement) causes weights to be thrown off balance and then the impact occurs, which then causes the unceasingly rotation with regular impacts. Whether a swinging or resonance then occurs, and how he did it, that is the secret. But one thing seems quite certain. It is easy to build. :))