Serious Build

a. the intentional perversion of truth; b. an act of deceiving or misrepresenting

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ME
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re: Serious Build

Post by ME »

I could try to discuss basic geometry.
Not university level. But maybe we can make it as simple as preschool level, but let me try not to go there. But, besides a feel for leverage, we don't need any other knowledge of physics, or math or theology.
Anyway, I would suggest something like:
  • Draw two semi-circles of different radii with the same center point.
    They don't have to align. But for starters put one on the left, and one on the right.
    Now we somehow 'just know' that the leverage of the larger half would be more than the smaller half.
    When some mass at the rim takes this path, then which way would that mass go when it needs to hop from one half of that circle to the other... and then back?
    Maybe interesting to note that hopping from one to the other is always in the same direction.
I would discuss such thing when there was room for discussion, but apparently there is not.
Let's just hope that the one who seriously tries to build Bessler's wheel understands such obstacle and knows in which direction things should move.
Marchello E.
-- May the force lift you up. In case it doesn't, try something else.---
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Post by JAL »

@ME, I'll answer your question in a thread that answers that problem.

edited to add: the thread Bessler's Secret reveals the answer. It takes more than a basic understanding of math. Hopefully you can understand that Pi/2>1 if the radius is 1. That's the starting point. It gets more complicated after that. That's because it is a compound problem, 2 different paths need to be factored as one.
And with where I am at with my build, it is an insult to say it's wrong because you haven't worked at the problem but merely state that I need to accept your opinion.
Prove Bessler's Secret wrong. If you can't, then you'll understand why it is his secret.
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re: Serious Build

Post by JAL »

Being kind of an a$$hole here. Is this structural engineering or design engineering? It's kind of like what I said, a show with an original Bessler book might be possible. For the time being, that is my primary goal/objective. One reason why appearances matter.
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Re: re: Serious Build

Post by JAL »

ME wrote:I could try to discuss basic geometry.
Not university level. But maybe we can make it as simple as preschool level, but let me try not to go there. But, besides a feel for leverage, we don't need any other knowledge of physics, or math or theology.
Anyway, I would suggest something like:
  • Draw two semi-circles of different radii with the same center point.
    They don't have to align. But for starters put one on the left, and one on the right.
    Now we somehow 'just know' that the leverage of the larger half would be more than the smaller half.
    When some mass at the rim takes this path, then which way would that mass go when it needs to hop from one half of that circle to the other... and then back?
    Maybe interesting to note that hopping from one to the other is always in the same direction.
I would discuss such thing when there was room for discussion, but apparently there is not.
Let's just hope that the one who seriously tries to build Bessler's wheel understands such obstacle and knows in which direction things should move.
Your mistake is using the same center point. That is something someone in kindergarten would do. I posted something about this years ago. No one understood the concept of using 2 different axis of rotation. You showed it is something that you're ignorant about.
@all, if things rotate on the same axle/axis, just doesn't matter. He (whoever did the post) created a fictitious argument that sounds plausible. In other words it's pure B.S.
До Свидания 😂

And sadly you said we need no understanding of physics. How would you understand momentum? You wouldn't. This doesn't require understanding Boltzmann's constant, the Stefan-Boltzmann constant or Max Pkanck's constant.
We also do not need to understand how the laws of thermodynamics require an equilibrium to be sought. Kind of why perpetual motion is impossible. Most or about all of what I stated deals with thermodynamics, oyvvus says this forum is about discussing things. Care to discuss constants that involve the laws of thermodynamics?
That is an allowable discussion. Want me to start or will you?
Can we start with how the rate of entropy is influenced by an endothermic environment? I think that would be a good starting point for a 2nd grader.
You can ask AB Hammer for help. He knows what I know 😂

@All, since the 2nd law of thermodynamics states that perpetual motion is impossible, we need to understand the principles in physics relative to thermodynamics. I am capable of doing so. It is in keeping within the requirements of this forum. That is to discuss what is applicable to the topic of perpetual motion.
To ignore the rules of thermodynamic is to ignore the rules of this forum.
AB Hammer teaches us that we must follow the rules.
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re: Serious Build

Post by Georg Künstler »

JAL wrote:
No one understood the concept of using 2 different axis of rotation


who tell you this ?

You describe it in a different way, but a Walking mechanism has automatically a different axis of Rotation.

A grindstone when rolling has one Rotation axis on the ground.
An uncircular millstone/grindstone (for example an octagon) has 2 rotary axes.

With a dowel construction of the outer Hamstercage, we automatically have this two different turning axis, and also an side Offset.
From dowel to dowel. Every dowel is a new Rotation axis.

So in the Hamstercage as Bessler has it constructed, we have 80 Rotation axes in a circle.
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Re: re: Serious Build

Post by agor95 »

ME wrote:I would discuss such thing when there was room for discussion, but apparently there is not.
If you wish for some room to discuss they either I could open up my private forum for the thread or you can have a private forum of your own.

I only ask that a thread in my forum, on it's conclusion, is published as a general post.

I believe the first 'Serious Build' is within each forum member.
The skills set required to describe your idea's in words, using maths and illustrations are tools we all need too build.

That of cause should be supplemented with tolerance, empathy and compassion either innate within or learnt.

I for one am not the same person I was in 2008 and the 'Serious Build' within changed me for the good.

P.S. There is a little Bessler Wheel running virtually within my mind and soul :-)
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Re: re: Serious Build

Post by JAL »

Georg Künstler wrote:JAL wrote:
No one understood the concept of using 2 different axis of rotation


who tell you this ?

You describe it in a different way, but a Walking mechanism has automatically a different axis of Rotation.

A grindstone when rolling has one Rotation axis on the ground.
An uncircular millstone/grindstone (for example an octagon) has 2 rotary axes.

With a dowel construction of the outer Hamstercage, we automatically have this two different turning axis, and also an side Offset.
From dowel to dowel. Every dowel is a new Rotation axis.

So in the Hamstercage as Bessler has it constructed, we have 80 Rotation axes in a circle.

Goerg,
I would share more of my work but the most credible people in here have none to show, nothing recent anyway. And it's okay for people to criticize my work when they haven't contributed anything. That's not really a good way to run a forum. If I think that my build might work then I am projecting something rather than think that doing research and development does yield results.
And I do have quite a few years of work invested in this. I have had to take year long breaks because of medical issues.
If my build works then the people in here will say what they will. Mostly they'll say they expected better. They are a demanding lot.
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Re: re: Serious Build

Post by AB Hammer »

JAL wrote:Goerg,
I would share more of my work but the most credible people in here have none to show, nothing recent anyway. And it's okay for people to criticize my work when they haven't contributed anything. That's not really a good way to run a forum. If I think that my build might work then I am projecting something rather than think that doing research and development does yield results.
And I do have quite a few years of work invested in this. I have had to take year long breaks because of medical issues.
If my build works then the people in here will say what they will. Mostly they'll say they expected better. They are a demanding lot.
JAL aka James Lindgaard

That is a arrogant taunt. especially when you yourself have not shown a completed wheel in how long? Just nothing but the same wheel in parts with just slight changes over the last (seams like) the past 10 years. But you do have more parts and seem to be making them look good. And you are in the beginning testing stages of a build. So that is some progress i guess.

People will show what they want, when they want. It is up to them. You are not so righteous that people should bow to your words.

IF! you are successful? Then and only then, will you have proved yourself. You need to stop muddying up your name by being such a jerk, or no one will take you serious. You have a lot of mending to do. So now would be a good time to start.

I had lost count on how many time you have been banned from here and other forums. I'm am tired of counting.
"Our education can be the limitation to our imagination, and our dreams"

So With out a dream, there is no vision.

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re: Serious Build

Post by JAL »

AB Hammer, I guess when you have nothing. It's risky showing work in here. someone can claim that their criticism helped someone to be successful. That would be too easy to do. A person should protect themselves. After all, there is no legal agreement in place to protect the builder who shows their work.
I mean all someone like you would have to do is post a picture of something and then claim that you taught them something. And when the self elected leaders of the forum refuse to either make a statement to protect the builder or show their own work or both, no one should show or discuss work in here.
This forum seems mostly about commenting on what other people do or have done. It does put builders at risk of theft of their work.
It is funny Herr Kommandant, I have a picture of it on my smartphone that I had planned on uploading. But then I look at the posts of people who have no work to show and didn't. You just gave me an order to show something more or you'll make fun of me, put me down and ridicule my work. Yet your criticism is allowed while mine isn't. Kind of why in the future I will recommend that anyone who builds should avoid this forum. This forum is as oyvvus said, for discussing perpetual motion which means evaluating other people's work. And that is one of the definitions of a forum. 😁
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re: Serious Build

Post by JAL »

Since the red dot has been removed, this is where I am at right now with my build. It will be a couple of weeks or more before I'll have anything to show if I feel like it. With where I am at with this build, it's not really possible for someone to help me because they haven't been involved with it.
A successful build will allow me to have surgery. I would also most likely see about patenting it. A Design patent is allowed. The reason for the patents would be to prevent businesses from profiting off of this. At the same time some people in Germany might want them. They might want to make a museum or an addition to one to exhibit Bessler's work.
This is where going to Utrecht, Netherlands and Germany could help to create interest. Fortunately I do have other patents/inventions that I can pursue.
The picture shows a counterclockwise rotation. I have some finishing and small details to work on. In a couple of weeks I'll start making the last parts for it. And as far as builds go, it might be one of the more complex ones. And adding in the details with the wood working, just increased the amount of work that I've had to do. One picture shows some of the details of the upright for the stand and for one arm.
The largest diameter/width of the crossbar is over 5ft/1. 5m.

For fun I made a bet with this German band https://youtu.be/Nr_ycSqGTww. I bet them I could build a perpetual motion machine. Even if this build works, I will lose the bet because perpetual motion is impossible. This is designed to conserve the Earth's momentum. I've listened to a lot of of their and their drummer's music. It would be nice to watch them live.
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re: Serious Build

Post by agor95 »

I find the main reason for red dotting a member is bombing someone's thread; as a last resort.

However thanks for the you tube video. It's good to revisit the foundation from time to time.

Best advise, just keep focused on the build and members can work offline.
Then post later with any new topics.

The https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trebuchet effect.

Naturally a balance 2 metre arm rotating around the centre.

Then one arm releasing a joint at 0.5 metres to allow it too fall.

It is an interesting dynamic to study.

I looked through the posts on your threads and did a mental count of focused on the topic or off topic.

I prefer the soil of text before me to have more grains of gold and if possible a nugget or two.

This area of study is one nugget.
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re: Serious Build

Post by JAL »

agor, some people don't want me to succeed. Even if I block them, other forum members will still be able to see their posts.
The trebuchet is very interesting. What I've always have found interesting is how the weight being lifted seems to accelerate when it rotates around an axis.
This is an example of 2 axis of rotation. With what I am building, it uses a fulcrum that is not the axle. If people want to consider what I'm working on, they probably need to consider how a trebuchet projectile seems to get it's force from swinging. I'm not sure but Bessler might have said something about that when it comes to his wheel.

This Nova special calls the trebuchet a secret. Just watch the first 2 minutes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVO8VznqMeQ

The link to some basic calculus if someone wants to do the math:
https://youtu.be/9bJ2Z1jbIAE

This video gets into the physics of the trebuchet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hAX72Xgf1U

With Bessler's wheel, his most talked about one, the ascending weight moves towards the axle as it swings upward. A few things for people to consider. It does take time to consider something. I am hoping that some of you will think about it.
If you want a simpler way to consider it, as a weight swings closer to the axle, it creates less resistance for the weight swinging down.
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re: Serious Build

Post by agor95 »

I will view the links

Note. Most members want anyone too succeed and that does include yourself.

P.S. All members should remember to fiddle their own tune.
So play in harmony with this phrase of the thread and keep off the bad notes.
If someone comes in with a discordant note/post ignore.

We all have better thing to do.

Regards
Last edited by agor95 on Tue Aug 27, 2019 6:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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re: Serious Build

Post by JAL »

I deleted the post. I made a short animation but as agor said, I am the problem. If it works and I get invited to Europe, this forum will become a joke. Simply because I wasn't good enough for you guys. And I guess John Collins never thought about writing a book about Bessler's work being realized. If what I'm working on is right, I won't be a part of his story.
Sad to say agor all you talked about in your post was me and how I need a better attitude. I shouldn't have to tolerate my work being attacked by people who have nothing to show. That's an abusive situation.
ME stated that math says it won't work. Why can't I disagree with him? Because if I do then I am attacking him while he isn't attacking me. That doesn't work for me. He can show his math. If he isn't willing to then he shouldn't write a long post explaining why I'm wrong.
Last edited by JAL on Tue Aug 27, 2019 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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re: Serious Build

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